MyCrimeSpace

1,471 opinions for Mercades Nichols’ mom files lawsuit

• Laurie
  Jul 22, 2008 at 9:28 pm

  No wonder this girl takes no accountability for her crime.

• John
  Jul 23, 2008 at 12:08 am

  That is the biggest load of bullcrap I have ever heard. And I’ve heard about some seriously stupid lawsuits (a woman sued Kraft foods because the guacamole she bought didn’t have enough avacado in it. I can’t make this crap up). I would love to see the judge take one look at this, laugh, and throw the lawsuit papers in her face.

• Navigator
  Jul 23, 2008 at 7:51 am

  What is that old saying that goes something like “keep your mouth shut and no one knows your an idiot or open it and remove all doubt”? She has removed ALL DOUBT to EVERYONE that she is #1 - a HORRIBLE mother #2. an idiot and #3. a gold digger. Since the beginning of this she has tried to get as much media attention that she can FOR HERSELF!!! NO WONDER her daughter is a mess. I, as a parent, would be humiliated, and would not want to even show my face. BUT SHE wants to put down the victim, make her daughter out to be an angel and tries to find any angle possible that will get tem “famous” in some way. I would not doubt that she was not only aware of the beating as it occured, but if she was not there herself.

  It is so sad that Mercedes had to get into such trouble to spark her mothers interest in her life. When asked by the media if she knew any of the girls or parents of these girls, she said she had just spoken with them the night before. She also gave up rights to Mercedes and gave her to her mother to raise. YEAH, SHE IS SUCH A GREAT MOTHER!!!!!!!! Lord help us all !!!

• Garland
  Jul 23, 2008 at 2:18 pm

  OK, so she’s suing the sherrif just because he’s speaking the truth about her? What a joke. She’ll have a fat chance of seeing a dime. First of all, she has to prove that he defamed her, secondly, she has to prove actual damages, real economic damages before she can even claim emotional damages or trauma, thirdly, she has to show that her own actions, i.e., her own criminal background aren’t what is preventing people from hiring her. The Sheriff is entitled to express an opinion, in public or not, and he is entitled to characterize the actions of a criminal defendant in a certain way. Not to mention that he has a certain amount of statutory immunity from suit.

• mark
  Jul 23, 2008 at 6:47 pm

  C’mon guys….Ms. Garcia has got it right….what Sheriff Grady Judd should have said was; “look at those precious girls, aren’t they just adorable how they beat upon this other girl?” and “look at Mercades just cozy up on that sofa with a pillow” isn’t that beautiful?? And how she gave advice on how to give the camera more light when everyone was berating Tori, we all just fail to see how accommodating Mercades really is. The sheriff should have looked directly at the camera and offer these magnificent, well behaved polite teenagers the offer to baby-sit your toddlers, what role models they would be!!!!
  And let us not forget the lawyer….OMG, actually taking this case….oh how far we dropped….

• John
  Jul 24, 2008 at 1:14 pm

  People generally do not understand how the legal process works but everyone needs to understand that this video would have gotten to the media without Sheriff Judd. When a person is charged with a crime all evidence against that person is available to the defense and the prosecution in what is called a “Discovery”. The discovery and every other part of the process is “Public Information”. This simply means as soon as the video was submitted into evidence the media would have had access to it and the media circus would have started anyway. Judd simply beat the media to the punch by showing the video. Florida has what is called the Sunshine Law in reference to public information. ANYTHING that is submitted to the goverment, by the goverment, or through the goverment can be accessed. Judd is a phenominal Sheriff who takes no trash from anyone. He says what he means and means what he says. Thanks to Judd bad guys have a saying about Polk County “Come on vacation, leave on probation, come back on a violation”. THis mother is hoping she can file a lawsuit and Judd will settle with her to keep it from going to court. Judd is not a liberal politician….she will not get a dime from him. This once again shows what kind of person Garcia is. For the record Mecedes did not live with her mother when this incident happened. SHe lived with her grandmother in Highland City. Garcia lives in Polk City, Florida. Seems to me she did not want anything to do with her until there was fame or money involved. Bad things come to bad people. Judd is the people’s Sheriff and the people will stand behind him.

• Amyv
  Jul 24, 2008 at 11:56 pm

  I could not agree with you more. This mother is just beyond words. She doesn’t raise her child. She crawls out from under a rock to defend her “sweet angel” so she can get her face on t.v. She takes her daughter to court with a request from the lawyer that the girl be able to go on talk shows. Then when that doesn’t work and the whole Dr. Phil deal falls through, she wants to sue the sheriff. For what. money. That would be ridiculous and that should go to the grandmother if god forbid they ever got any. This mother should go back to where she came from. Sell her sex toys and shut up. Where is Judge Judy when you need her. This mother is NOT RAISING this girl. If I were the victims parents this mother and her daughter would be in civil court so fast their heads would spin. (If they don’t already i.e. the exorcist lol). That is after the criminal trials are over. Does this mother actually have the nerve to say that this has caused mental anguish to her daughter. We all know some of the people in the town have the same opinion about all of these teenagers. Any mental anguish they are feeling they deserve and “you brought it all on yourselves sweeties” quoting one of these animals telling that to the victim on the tape. That made my blood boil. But, seems to be an appropriate statement for these girls now. What goes around comes around. You wanted your fame you got it. Just not exactly what you expected. “unfair treament and exposure”, they idiots taped it. Unfair treatment yes to the VICTIM, exposure THAT IS WHAT THEY WANTED. You are going to sue for exactly what these girls were intending the whole time. “integrity” the lawyer must have had to explain to the mother what that word meant. Obviously, not in her vocabulary. Mark really enjoyed your comments. The sheriff spoke the truth. I commend him and I wish crimes were handled this way more often, instead of the perps getting all the privledges. Good job Judd. Keep it up.

• Lonny
  Jul 27, 2008 at 3:36 am

  When I saw this fat, ugly, b*tch on TV boo-hooing about how she didn’t have money to bail out her precious little DEMON of a girl a few months ago, I had a gut instinct that she wanted to make a profit from this incident.

  And guess what? Dr. Phil came to the rescue, bailed the little miscreant out to be on the show, and then backed out, blaming his staff for paying for Mercades’ bail when the public outcry became too much to handle.

  I seriously doubt she’ll get a penny from the lawsuit, but she WILL succeed in building a bigger tent for this media circus that has already proved to be profitable on her account.

  I guarantee that there will be more monetary offers to this woman and sadly, she will accept them, come on TV, and make tons of dough.

  :^(

• Amyv
  Jul 27, 2008 at 4:06 am

  Well if she does make any money off of this won’t that leave her open for a civil suit from the victim? If I were the victims parents I would sue her so fast her head would spin. She hasn’t even raised this teenager. I would like to see her go on Nancy Grace someday. She would tear her alive. Their has to be some kind of law from profiting from a crime. I think part of the suit is mental anguish she has suffered. What about the monster kid of hers. What kind of mental anguish do they think the victim has suffered. If it has caused them mental anguish GOOD. I do however feel sorry for the grandmother. She does not deserve to be put through what she has gone through. She tryed to help her trashy daughter by letting her trashy granddaughter live with her. She should go back to selling her sex toys and shut her mouth. She doesn’t care one bit about her daughter. If the public keeps up the outcry after the trial mayne these talk shows will back off. I doubt very seriously Dr. Phil would have her on. I think all of that bleach she puts on her hair has seeped into her brain.

• Greg
  Jul 28, 2008 at 3:38 pm

  This is our fault. Society does not do a good job training people to be good.

  Moral reasoning is a talent, just as some are good at math. While some may be a genius at decision making and determining right from wrong, others are morally retarded.

  The way to deal with this as a society is to reward people who make the proper decisions and punish those who make the wrong decisions.

  Currently society only punishes, nobody gets rewarded for being right, or being good. If one of us were there and were to get involved and rescue Victoria, society does not have any system set up to reward us with money or status.

  This is why when girls like Victoria are in these situations we do nothing to help. Whats in it for me? Why assume I’m capable of advanced reasoning? My point is, rather than hating the girls responsible for this we should come up with some constructive solutions for how to properly train people into adopting correct behavior.

  Pavlov conditioning works by offering rewards to reinforce correct behavior and dishing out punishments to discourage incorrect behavior.

  How can we blame these girls if society rewards incorrect behavior and ignores correct behavior? Society does not care who gets hurt and has no compassion for victims, and so neither did these girls. Perhaps if people were rewarded for good behavior and rewarded when they end bullying there would be a lot less of it.

  Maybe I’d give a damn if something were in it for me, but don’t expect me to give a damn out of some enlightened moral reasoning because we don’t all have that ability just like not all of us can do calculus or work on advanced math.

  Lower your expectations and we can solve these problems.

• Greg
  Jul 28, 2008 at 3:55 pm

  Laurie, some of us aren’t capable of feeling empathy, remorse, or advanced moral reasoning associated with these instincts.

  To communicate with our kind, you must apply positive reinforcement(rewards) to correct behavior, and negative reinforcement(punishments) to incorrect behavior. The reason the situation is out of control is because the moral elitists believe that everybody is capable of figuring out right from wrong.

  The truth is, if you leave it up to the individuals, there will be no such thing as right and wrong. It’s up to you, the people like you who have the ability to do the advanced moral calculus, to develop a formula for determining what right and wrong is, and then rewarding in a consistent manner based on this formula.

  If you use the formula that it’s always wrong to harm people physically who have not physically harmed you, then you must reward us in every situation where we decide to do the right thing and not bully or beat up someone smaller, or even defend a smaller person.

  If we take it further, now we are men, and we decide not to harm women and children, we should be rewarded for this behavior. On the other hand the people who through their lives bullied smaller kids, animals, and beat their wives, should be listed in a database and punished.

  This is not currently what happens, currently society has no consistent right or wrong. At best the right and wrong is based on the bible and not based on reason and science, therefore it lacks credibility with people who do not believe in Jesus or God.

  Right and wrong must be measured based on cause and effect, the outcomes of ones actions. I can determine for example that it would be wrong to kill the bullies who beat up Victoria not because I’d feel any remorse, or guilt, or feel bad about doing it, but because the consequences of this action would lead to outcomes which would be both bad for me, for the victim Victoria, and for the people who care about me.

  Do I get any sort of recognition or reward for figuring this out? No, it’s considered an obvious conclusion. But it’s not obvious for everybody, and in my opinion moral courage should be rewarded and moral cowards punished.

  If this does not happen, then I can promise you that in 5-10 years you can re-read this post and you’ll see that society will have become worse, and there will be more bullying, and even rapes and murders recorded and uploaded to the internet. And that’s just the beginning, the people who do this will realize that as long as they get caught there will be minimal consequences, and the more we reduce the consequences the more violence we will create.

• Navigator
  Jul 28, 2008 at 6:41 pm

  Greg,

  Great Reasoning! Makes alot of sense. It is to bad that we can not find a way to implement this into our society. Our criminals are running our system by complaining about not being rewarded for bad behavior. They get cable tv/good food/education and free shelter in prison and we wonder why we have repeat offenders. If we could truley punish the bad without having to be politicaly correct, our society would look differently upon doing something wrong. They would know there was a consequence to an action… today there are very few consequenses to actions and that has ruined our society.

• gompertz
  Jul 28, 2008 at 11:28 pm

  greg thank you for some excellent points about social conditioning. It could be asked whether moral judgment is more like language skill, ie universal rather than unequally distributed like mathematical ability. What is clear is that today there is very little connection between good behavior and rewards. How did we get here? It began when modern science revealed the inadequacy of western religion and philosophy to provide a foundation for morality. As you say neither elitist ethics nor old time religion can be a basis for the regulation of modern society. May I suggest that methods derived from eastern philosophy, like Confucian ethics, more behavior-oriented and concerned with practice
  rather than speculation, could supplement a behaviorist approach. On the personal level, yoga and tai chi create a greater receptivity to the methods of social conditioning you recommend. Some will say this is simplistic, but I am certain that if those young people who were involved in this horror had some exposure to meditation, tai chi, martial arts of some kind the whole thing could have been resolved without violence. Not because they were making abstract moral distinctions but because the habits of calm reflection developed through these disciplines would dispel negative emotions. Now that the deed is done I believe it is not too late to implement these disciplines of self-knowledge to allow healing and forgiveness. Certainly more effective than leaving it to Dr. Phil!

• John
  Jul 29, 2008 at 12:32 am

  Great points, guys. I agree with your statement about prisoners getting perks and such while they serve time, Navigator. I find it somewhat outrageous that people who have killed multiple other innocent (sometimes) people are allowed to watch TV and play basketball every day. Sometimes you just have to make it harsh- solitary confinement, no playtime, and your family has to pay for your food, etc instead of us taxpayers. If not wanting to go to prison isn’t enough incentive, maybe the we should make the consequences affect those around these people. They may not care if they have to spend the rest of their life in prison, but if they drag their family down with them, maybe they’ll think twice. That may be a little harsh, but I can see how it might stop some of the senseless violence out there.
  Prison really should be reserved for the murderers, rapists, etc., not for people who got in there because of the three strikes law because they have a drug problem. I’m not saying that their involvement in drugs shouldn’t go unpunished, I just think that life is not an appropriate sentence for three drug-related felonies. If they end up spending their life in prison because of 5-10 year sentences for each drug charge, so be it, but not because of three. We’re running out of room in our prisons, and we the taxpayers are spending way too much money to support those who have wronged society in some way.

• Navigator
  Jul 29, 2008 at 7:58 am

  John,

  Agreed. Maybe we should have jobs in prison for the prisoner to work off thier debt to society. Some form of assmbly that they HAVE to work, they gain no pay, they are given a salary that goes directly to the state. They receive a paper that shows how much they could have made if they were free. It will teach them a skill other then what they normally learn in prison (how to smuggle drugs or get away with a crime) and POSSIBLY give them a chance to live in society. This would only be for the prisoners who can be released back to society. The other, rapist/child molesters/murders need a prison for life and HARD CORE punishment to deter others from commiting the same crimes. The families, as you said, should have to foot the bill for these criminals… if you want them to eat… you pay for it. Harsh? Look how “harsh” they were to their victims! NO pitty on these scum.

• Amyv
  Jul 29, 2008 at 9:55 am

  I do not agree that society is responsible for the way these girls acted. I read back over comments left on other blogs since this incident occured. First it was the parents fault (agree with that to some degree especially this mother), then it was myspace and youtube, then it was the sheriff and now it is society. This I think is a huge problem with teenagers. They are not taught their will be consequences for their actions. The blame is always shifted to someone else. All you have to do is listen to their comments and it is clear they believe it was the victims fault. Being a good decent human being is reward in itself. IF you were there when she was being beaten, and you helped you would be recognized as a person who stood up to help another human being. No monetary value should be placed on not behaving like an animal. That is what makes this case so terrible. Six people all had the same mind set when it came to behaving like animals. I don’t care if one of them did get off because she didn’t hit her. To me that was a reward. She stood their and did NOTHING to help. What kind of message does that send to teenagers. I can assure you if that happened in my presence I would have found someway to help this victim. Go to the bathroom and dial 911 if you are scared of the other girls. It would have been that simple. If any one of these girls would have lifted a finger to defend the victim, the others might not have been so tough. Children should be rewarded for good behavior such as an ice cream cone or the little gold stars they receive when they do well in school. To reward for not being a bully is another story. Their is no excuse for this type of behavior and I am sick of hearing the defenses. We reward in our justice system by letting these perps off of house arrest. In this case I believe these girls need medication not meditation. I also agree with prisons being over crowded with drug users. I do not condon the use of drugs but the damage they are doing is to themselves. This does not apply to drug dealers because they do harm others. Which is worse getting caught with a small amount of marijuana or beating some girl half to death. I hope these teenagers get a harsh punishment. They sorely deserve it. They will never learn if they get off with a slap on the wrist. I am not sure that some of them are beyond help anyway. Oh and dear God do not recommend martial arts for these girls. They are capable of doing enough damage without that knowledge. I understand your logic with normal human beings, that this would provide discipline. Not the right answer for these animals. They do not know right from wrong to such a severe level, that if the courts don’t handle them, maybe then society should step in. I have a teenage daughter, and I am sure other parents would agree with me, these girls would never be allowed to associated with her. I would put an instant stop to that. Mother Teresa was an example to behold. Devoted her life to others with no regard for the monetary reward. Her reward will be to go down in history as one of the most selfless human beings to ever walk the face of the earth.

• gompertz
  Jul 29, 2008 at 11:56 am

  Amyv: I do share your outrage. You stated the case for harsh punishment
  very well. I introduced the eastern perspective not to mitigate the seriousness of the crime, but to offer remedies that have received little if any mention in these blogs or in tv discussions. Punishment, then what? Medication, not meditation? Do not confuse the seriousness of eastern practices with watered-down feel-good New Age nonsense. And I’ll say this about martial arts. It’s about learning compassion as well as self-defense and makes you far less likely to feel you have something to prove by physically assaulting someone. Many say these girls are just evil, period. Others say they are products of poor social conditioning and therefore not responsible at all. This goes to my point about the failure of western philosophy to provide useful answers to moral questions. Eastern philosophy does. You cannot judge Buddhism or Taoism by superficial consumerism-driven distortions any more than you can judge Christianity by the lies of the televangelists. I am a Buddhist, an angry Buddhist. Yes, that is not a contradiction in terms. I too believe that murderers and rapists should be harshly punished. Meanwhile John Couey is enjoying all the comforts of home, maybe they will put him peacefully to sleep some day. How has this madness come about? Again, it is the breakdown of traditional values, leaving us with the either/or of an anti- scientific religious fundamentalism or the liberal elitism that denies morality and values nothing but the excitement of sex and violence. Neither choice is acceptable. Eastern philosophy, so compatible with modern science, provides solutions. I do not insist. But I invite anyone who is concerned with the sad state of society to explore this possibility.

• Greg
  Jul 29, 2008 at 12:34 pm

  “It could be asked whether moral judgment is more like language skill, ie universal rather than unequally distributed like mathematical ability.”

  I think its clear that morality comes from reason, and the ability to reason is the basis behind math.

  A lot of people, especially young people and women (not trying to be sexist), believe that morality comes from emotion. My hypothesis is that morality is reason, and people who make stupid decisions just lack the ability to reason out the cause and effects and weigh the consequences of every action.

  The people who feel empathy, remorse, or compassion, have instincts which help them with moral reasoning, but sometimes these instincts can be wrong, such as in the case of the mother who has the evil rotten child who lets that child get away with murder.

  Some of you have my stances confused. I’m not saying we should punish criminals more. I think prison is punishment enough and I think we have too many non-violent offenders in prison.

  What I’m saying is, instead of letting society put us all in prison using the argument of security vs liberty, we should simply reward all the good behavior and punish all the bad behavior, starting with increasing the taxes on people who are violent, creating databases and putting profiles of people who beat their wives, keeping records of children who bullied people while growing up. Information is where you start.

  I advocate a scientific approach to detect bullies, track bullies, and legally handle them as both a mentor, a benefactor when they have good behavior you reward, and as a punisher, the police officer or prison guard.

  Research has shown that when training animals, reward works better than punishment. If you punish and you don’t reward, an animal can go mad and become aggressive. The fact that we build so many prisons and offer so few rewards is why aggression is increasing.

  If you were to train an animal only with punishment, many people will tell you that the animal will someday turn on you. The animal eventually will bite the hand that feeds it because it associates that hand with the hand that hits it/punishes it.

  Instead, reward goodness and correct decisions. When you have children, constantly test their decision making skills and give them allowance and gifts when they do the right thing. If you have a kid who bullies other kids, introduce your child to Karma, no gifts this xmas, no birthday party, no allowance, until and unless your kid is willing to spend some time helping smaller kids.

  This could mean something like teaching the smaller kid how to fight. This could mean protecting the smaller kid. We don’t need more laws we just need better parenting.

  Part of the reason why this happened is that we stopped spanking our kids, punishment was taken away completely from childhood development. On the flip side we didn’t add any new reward mechanisms either, so no only do kids not respect adults because they have nothing to fear from us, but they also don’t have anything to gain by listening to our instructions either.

  We all basically expect to raise little angels who will do exactly what we say merely because we are their parents and we say so. This was not the case when we were kids and it’s not the case now.

  When I was a kid and I did something really bad, I was spanked. Yes I did some borderline psychopath behavior as a kid, but when I crossed a line I was spanked, and while I did not really have the moral reasoning capability to understand why what I was doing was wrong, I could feel the pain of my actions, my parents made sure of it.

  Now that spanking is considered child abuse, parents should learn from science, pavlov conditioning is already used to train animals, it’s also used to train the military. A parent should establish total dominance, and I don’t mean physical, I mean psychological.

  This is going to sound blunt, but parents are going to have to start spying on their children, no more unearned privacy. If you suspect your child is a bully, if you suspect that your child is with the wrong crowd, and you know how to tap your own phone, or can get a copy of the chatlogs, do it. Privacy should be earned.

  Don’t buy your children a cellphone. Notice all of these bad kids have cellphones which only increase their power and ability to do bad things. Test your kid to make sure they are responsible before giving them their first cellphone.

  Gather information about their friends, learn what families they come from, if possible conduct a backround check on the parents. If you look at the situation here, all of these kids come from broken families, and if your kid is friends with them you need to know this so you can understand the behavior surrounding your kid.

  Philosophy is only a component, science and psychology are components, consistency is the main component. Be consistent with your rewards to associate them with the desired behavior, no matter what.

  The bible doesn’t work anymore because it’s neither consistent or reasonable. Nobody can be expected to live like Christ without also dying as Christ died, and most reasonable people aren’t willing to die for the sins of Mercades. If we look at Victoria, we can see she’s been trained by the bible due to the fact that she appears to forgive in the video.

  I think training should be based entirely on reason. Your behavior should be determined entirely by the consequences. This means that while it’s wrong to kill innocent life, it’s not wrong to kill in self defense, or in defense of innocent life. The bible does not make any distinction, most reasonable people do make the distinction.

  There is a lot more to my ideas than this but these are the basics, research pavlov conditioning, research game theory, and learn about consequentialism.

• Greg
  Jul 29, 2008 at 12:58 pm

  Navigator, prisoners should work for the victims, and all the money they earn should go director to the victims and the victims families.

  Prisoners should be allowed work for the victims from within the prison as long as 90% of the profits go to the victims. And only the good prisoners should be allowed to repay the families.

  Amyv, society is to blame. Society is what we use to shape the behavior of citizens. Capitalism continues to reward bad behavior, while the government continues to punish the good behavior by taxing good behavior, and creating laws like gun control to further disarm good people.

  Criminals cheat on their taxes, and even th criminals who don’t cheat, when a drug dealer gets arrested we don’t raise their taxes to make them pay their debt to society, we instead make all the good people pay for the drug dealer, forcing good people to clean up their mess.

  Society is at fault for rewarding bad behavior and punishing good behavior. Nobody gets rewarded for being a good role model, or for going decades without a criminal record, but you get punished for even the smallest offenses.

  This leads good and bad alike to despise society and collectively hate the government, the police, the law, etc. Because the law is not reasonable, the law is emotional, it picks and chooses based on how powerful people feel at any given moment. This leads young people to believe there is no right and wrong, there is no moral difference between getting rich from a life of crime and getting rich honestly, because society treats all the rich people well and rewards the rich merely for being rich, and treats all the poor people bad, punishing the poor for being poor, regardless of who is good or who is bad.

  This leads a poor youth to ruthlessly try to get rich so they can get the good treatment. They sell drugs, they hurt people along the way, just to keep themselves from being treated like shit by society. Perhaps if society offered another option, a clause, which says “Be a good person and we will help you get rich”, perhaps the youth would choose to stay in school and have the honest living.

  But if you tell the youth indirectly via the laws and the consequences “Do whatever you want to get rich, just don’t get caught”, then thats what people will do. People don’t care about right and wrong because the law isn’t about right and wrong, the law is about power games.

  You can use the war on drugs as an example of a set of laws created merely for power games. Tabacco companies are allowed to get rich selling the most deadly and addictive drug, so young kids think it’s okay, society doesn’t really care how we get rich.

  So they go and they sell drugs, they get arrested and punished for doing the same thing that other families are doing legally. It’s these double standards that ruin the consistency of the law, it gives the indirect message to youth that there really aren’t any laws, just the weak and the strong, and if you are strong/rich/smart, you can be above the law.

  These kids who bully, they think they are too smart to ever get caught. They don’t feel like it’s wrong to bully because our entire society is built up around rewarding bullies. If you are tabacco company, you are just as much of a drug dealer as the cocaine cartels.

  Maybe if society for once stopped rewarding the bullies, our children would stop idolizing and trying to be bullies. Our society makes bullies rich and then forces regular people to work for them.

• Greg
  Jul 29, 2008 at 1:08 pm

  Amyv “Being a good decent human being is reward in itself. ”

  It’s this sort of thinking that causes people not to be good human beings. Just because you have some sort of emotional reward from being good, don’t assume that I do or these kids do.

  I need an incentive to be good, it could be cash, it could be drugs, but don’t assume that any behavior is a reward in itself, this is what I meant by moral elitism.

  People who say stuff like “I help people because it makes me feel good.”, assume that this is why everyone helps people. The truth is, the majority of people help others merely because its in their best interest to do so and feel nothing at all towards the victim.

  If you want more people to help, you have to increase the incentive, it’s just like how capitalism works, if you want more people to work in a certain profession you pay them more money. Expecting people to volunteer is why there aren’t many people who help.

  If you want to help people for free, go ahead, I’d rather get rich.

• Greg
  Jul 29, 2008 at 1:11 pm

  Amyv “She stood their and did NOTHING to help.”

  She did nothing to help because she expected to be punished by helping. Maybe they’d have kicked her ass next. It’s not like we would have rewarded her for saving the girl and risking her life.

• Amyv
  Jul 29, 2008 at 11:22 pm

  Gompertz - I did not mean to dismiss Tai Chai and other forms of discipline and self control. I myself believe that Yoga and Pilates are the best stress relievers around. When I said medication, I mean for some psychological disorder. I do believe some of these girls have some real psych. issues. However, I do believe these girls are beyond that point. We believe in peace obviously they don’t. Greg - I do not know where to start with you. I agree that our country is for the rich getting richer. Tobacco companies paid congress pockets so nothing is done. selling drugs is a get rich quick idea for some people. Until they get caught and put in prison. You condemn capitalism but reinforce it with your ideas for rewarding. I am a little confused with that. The attitude, what do I benefit from this, is exactly what is wrong with society. If you require monetary or drug rewards for acting like a decent human being you will never be one. Please clarify what you believe. In one blog you seem against capitalism and in the next you sound like you condon it? Their is no doubt our country has become all about greed. Especially from the top. If you do well in school, get a college education and keep your nose clean the reward is that you will have an easier life style. Their are so many issues you bring up that could be debated for hours. However, these girls are responsible for their own actions. I don’t think that they even would know what the word capitalism meant. So this as a defense for me does not fly. As for Cara, the one who stood by and did nothing, she stated herself that she was not scared of these girls hitting her. She just didn’t see the big deal. Her reward for this, get out of charges free. If you were their and did nothing to help this defenseless girl you are a coward. Once again, while they are in their frenzy of beating this girl try to slip away through the bathroom window. Run like hell and call for help. Her reward would have been that she would have been seen as a hero by the media. Should she get money for that, hell no. Now her reward will forever be that she and the other girls were a pack of cowards who couldn’t handle their problems one on one. Anyone that would just walk by someone being victimized and not help is also a coward. Why is it some pepole feel entitled to be given things for any actions they take? Bottom line these girls need to go to jail and work to pay the victim. Not society.

• gompertz
  Jul 30, 2008 at 1:05 am

  “I think it is clear that morality comes from reasoning and the ability to reason is the basis behind math.” It does not follow that morality is like math in being a special endowment possessed by only a few. More likely that morality, like language, is a universal human characteristic.
  It seems, though, that I will never convince you of that and you will not convince me. More to the point, it is not just “young people and women” but neuroscientists (some of whom are in fact women) who challenge the facile emotion vs reason distinction. For instance, Antonio Damasio: “Descartes’ Error”. One could of course question his interpretation of the evidence, but not the evidence itself. That is what makes science different from philosophy. 25 centuries of metaphysical speculation led only to Auschwitz and the gulags. I am suspicious of any scheme of social control run by technocrats. However, if you restrict the application of such a system to the young, as you say, for instance, to identification of bullying behavior, I think that is a good thing. I attribute much of the “dumbing of America” which I have witnessed in my long life, to the fact that too many children are terrorized by bullies in the schools while the authorities look the other way. I wonder how we get the people in power to take the necessary actions? Just one more thing about emotion and reason. When I watched the video of the beating, I was so outraged I wanted to go down to Florida and do horrible things to these people. That outrage came from emotion. I feel it is different from moral outrage, which comes next. And then comes compassion. Of course for the victim, first of all, but also the inner calm to see the fears and insecurities of the attackers, whose lives are devoid of prospects for the future. They fill their lives with superficial pursuits, with sex and violence, which is all that is offered by a society ruled by greed. Freud and Buddha both saw that these forms of gratification would ultimately yield diminishing returns of pleasure, and lead to misery. These observations, for whatever they are worth, are derived, at least for me, from the meditation experience, and are not reducible to emotion. Of course I may be mistaken.

• gompertz
  Jul 30, 2008 at 1:32 am

  amyv:Thank you for your thoughtful response. I am quite new to the computer, and sometimes when I read over my comments I am appalled how they sound. Of course these girls would not benefit from a short period of stress reduction exercises a day. Deeper commitment and professional intervention would be needed. Rather than go on and on let me just indicate one book (perhaps you know it) by Mark Epstein, M.D. called Thoughts Without a Thinker, Psychotherapy from a Buddhist perspective. He gives a much better account than I could of the kind of intervention, both psychotherapeutic and meditative, that could benefit such deeply troubled people. I am from the generation of these girls’ grandparents, and I can truly attest that the moral decay was well underway by the time their parents were born. So in a way you can’t put all the responsibility on them or their parents, though the choice to turn to spiritual discipline is an individual one. I wonder. In Brittany Mayes’ Photobucket are pictures of Jesus (revered by all true Buddhists). Could that be why she alone was able to show remorse?

• Amyv
  Jul 30, 2008 at 4:04 am

  gompertz - Don’t worry about being new to the computer. It will get easier as you go along. I am still learning new things everyday. I to have appalled myself at how much hatred I can feel towards these individuals when I see the tape. I to have wanted to go down their and slap the tar out of everyone of them to say the least. I have a 16 year old daughter so I am not in the grandparent category. I am dealing with teenage parenting issues. I am not familiar with the writing you mentioned but intend to look it up. I was brought up as a devote Catholic. Although, I have strayed from organized religion, I have a deep faith. At first when I saw all of the girls pictures something about Brittany Mayes struck me as different. She had an innocent look about her. She was crying at her pretrial hearing. However, after finding out she is the one making the strange “oh yea baby” sounds over and over again each time the victimis hit I totally changed my mind. I found that so disturbing. Excuse me for saying this but it had a tone of some kind of sexual excitement to it. Wow. That was hard to say. But she was deriving some kind of sick, sick pleasure from that girls pain. So I am skeptical that pictures of Jesus were not put up to make her look better. Also, if you notice a lot of these girls wear crosses to the pretrial hearings. They wanted off of house arrest to attend church. I find this very difficult to believe. I think it is an attempt to shed them in a different light because of the impending trial.I don’t think you were seeing remorse from her but fear of what is to come. From what I have heard she is quite the bully. I have to hand it to the victims mother. She has stayed calm and collected through this whole ordeal. Never bad mouthing anyone. I would not be that way of this was my daughter. First of all the minute I found out about it, those girls wouldn’t have had time to be arrested. I would have gotten to them first. That sounds really harsh but it is the way I feel. I would protect my daughter against anything. That is what a mother does. My anger would have well taken over before any kind of reason set in. I don’t pretend to know what it would take to rehabilitate these girls. Or if it is even possible. Something is missing in all of them that should be normal feelings for any human being. I am sure I will hear back about that comment from someone. lol. Greg - I would have helped that girl at that age even if it did mean I would get my ass kicked. I would rather go to bed beaten then knowing I was a coward. Good night all.

• Greg
  Jul 30, 2008 at 4:42 am

  Amyv I never condemned capitalism when it works for good people and for good purposes. I condemn capitalism when it rewards bad people and is used for evil purposes.

  I’m a capitalist, I don’t think we could get anything done without rewarding people, however I also don’t think we should be rewarding all the wrong people and then wondering why we have so much bad behavior.

  All I’m saying is we should start giving our rewards to the people who deserve it and making the people rich who deserve to be rich instead of making bullies, assholes, and all around horrible people into millionaires and billionaires and then we wonder why our society is corrupt and a mess.

  “the attitude, what do I benefit from this, is exactly what is wrong with society. If you require monetary or drug rewards for acting like a decent human being you will never be one.”

  This is exactly what I mean, this is moral elitism. A good human being is a human being who adopts good behavior. Anyone can be trained into adopting good behavior regardless of whether it’s natural for them or not. But you are acting like a moral elitist when you say that not only do you expect people to adopt good behavior, but you expect them to like it.

  I think this is why you have the current society, you have to stop having expectations about how people are supposed to think and feel, and just work with the people you have to create the behavior you want. Stop trying to change people, and start learning to modify behavior.

  Trying to change people is like trying to turn a dog into a cat, you can’t do it. But you can train both a dog and cat to jump through the same hoop, and that’s what I’m talking about.

  “Their is no doubt our country has become all about greed. ”

  Greed is just an instinct, like compassion, remorse and empathy. Learn to work with peoples instincts instead of expecting them to have yours. Someone who does not have compassion or remorse might have greed, learn to reward their greed, because thats what makes them feel good, and stop trying to tell them they are a bad human for being different.

  “Her reward would have been that she would have been seen as a hero by the media. Should she get money for that, hell no.”

  You are part of the problem. It’s your volunteerism and moral elitism that has lead to the current crisis. You refuse to accept that not everybody is motivated by the same instincts you are motivated by. Some of us are only motivated by our own greed, by money, we might not feel compassion or remorse for victims but we’d save victims if theres something in it for us.

  What you are doing is saying there should never be anything in it for us, and guess what, you are outnumbered, you are actually the minority, and this is why the world is fucked up. You believe you are the majority when in reality most people are greedy and don’t give a damn about the victims like Victoria, Victoria is not the first victim and wont be the last, and it’s not ever going to change until you give up your moral elitism and accept the fact that not everyone can be motivated by the same mechanisms. Reason with me please, we are together in this. Use capitalism as a tool for change instead of fearing it.

  Gom,
  “It seems, though, that I will never convince you of that and you will not convince me.”

  If it were universal, we wouldn’t have any victims. Because we have so many victims, from slavery, to the victims created every day by the wars, to the victims created by bullying, it seems fairly obvious to me that humanity as a species is morally insane.

  If we don’t have enough reasoning ability to save the earth from our destructiveness, if we are going to pollute and wipe out species, if we are just going to sit while billions die in third world countries, all the evidence points to the fact that only a select few enlightened people have morality and the majority only have greed.

  Want to prove me wrong? Show me some evidence of when humanity ever on a mass scale did anything out of some enlightened self interest without money or economics involved.

  Capitalism was invented specifically for the purpose of training humanity to adopt certain behaviors, but capitalism is out of control because the most reasonable morally enlightened people are afraid of it. It’s just a tool, it’s what you use to guide people like Mercades who aren’t going to be guided by other means.

  And emotion is an instinct, reason is not an instinct it’s something you can measure. I cannot objectively measure how you feel, but we can objectively measure that if we don’t do something fast, climate change and pollution will destroy our planet. It has nothing to do with emotion, the math will tell you that infinite population growth will increase violence and pollution infinitely.

  Sure we can change, but when you say you believe every human on earth is the same, even when neuroscientists prove that different brains work differently and have different capabilities, you come across as being misinformed and you appear to be speaking from emotion. I’ll give you some links so the research to make this a bit easier for people to understand my arguments:Brainscan Experiment 1
  Brainscan Experiment 2

  It’s not a guess, it’s a fact, that some people have brains which limit their reasoning capability. I’m not saying they are a victim, but it’s just a fact, they simply aren’t ever going to be capable of moral reasoning at the advanced level because their brainscans show they cant.

  Now that it is established that not all brains have equal reasoning capability, we can see that moral reasoning is an innate talent just like math. It’s not like language because if it were like language, the brain scan results would be the same for everybody, as they are with language.

  What I advocate is using science, in specific, neuroscience to figure out exactly what influences and motivates different kinds of brains. Some of the experiments have found that some brains respond more to winning money than to seeing a person be tortured to death, are we supposed to ignore what the neuroscience is telling us when we make our decisions? I think we should follow the science.

  The main reason I seperate emotion from moral reasoning is because sometimes what feels right is morally wrong. It might feel good to kill people you don’t like, but the consequences of doing that are what make it wrong. It might feel good to rape people, but the consequences make it wrong.

  I place morality exclusively in the real of reason because reasoning is objective measurement of the outcome of ones actions, it’s something which can be reduced to formulas, emotions on the other hand I cannot even know if they are anything more than chemicals in your brain.

  I don’t know if emotions are real, but I understand cause and effect, that is as objective and natural as gravity. You cannot teach a person right and wrong by talking about feelings, you have to teach moral reasoning, decision theory, the weighting and measuring of consequences is the only true morality, and sometimes you will have to do stuff you wont feel good about, which will hurt people, because it leads to the best consequences.

  Decision Theory

  <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism

  No action is always right or always wrong, right and wrong depends entirely on the situation you are in. Because there are no moral absolutes, you cannot base morality on feelings and expect it to be correct 100% of the time.

  What if you are on a plane and a terrorist decides to try to hiijack it? If you kill the terrorist you save many innocent lives, even though the act of killing this terrorist will make you feel horrible, if you listen to your emotions you’ll freeze and you wont be able to act because you’ll be too busy focusing on how you feel to be a hero. If you kill the terrorist right then and there, you’d sacrifice that one life to save your life and many others, it you’d obviously feel bad because of your compassion and remorse, but it does not change the fact that killing is not wrong in every situation no matter how you feel about it.

  What if it’s a school shooting, you have a gun and Cho or some shooter shows up and starts shooting everyone, you have a clear shot at his head, you are a trained sniper just coming back from Iraq, do you take the shot and save lives or do you focus on how you feel?

  I’m not saying you shouldn’t feel compassion or remorse, I’m saying there is a time for feeling and a time for acting, and decision making cannot be based on feeling because it can get in the way of acting. This is what I mean when I say morality is the purest form of reasoning, because what is right often makes the hero feel bad afterwards. Just think of the police officer who kills the criminal, or the trained swat sniper who ends the hostage crisis, they probably don’t feel good about it but they knew it was right.

• Greg
  Jul 30, 2008 at 4:55 am

  I apologize if my post is poorly written, it’s late at night and I need sleep, hopefully my argument is more clear now. I’m advocating for a neuro-economic form of change to alter the behavior of the human species towards a more rational pattern.

• Greg
  Jul 30, 2008 at 4:59 am

  Amyv dont be insulted by anything I said, just understand that moral elitism does not help you accomplish your goals. It only alienates people when you say they aren’t capable of being good because they don’t have the same brain capabilities as you do.

  Again, the article BrainScan2

• gompertz
  Jul 30, 2008 at 11:48 am

  Greg: Thank you for the clarifications and references. Please understand that I do not raise issues to be contentious but to learn more. Yes, the brains of different individuals show differences which are correlated with different capacities for empathy. I would be curious to know what brain scans would reveal in the case of a) a mathematician who can calculate 8-place logarithmic tables in his head, and b) a mathematician with poor calculating abilities. There are thousands of branches of mathematics and no mathematician is master of more than a few. Brain scans might reveal that the brains of mathematicians would differ among themselves, but by how much? Maybe, as Wittgenstein might say, we have a family of brain scans with resemblances and differences. Now in the case of moral capacity there would also be resemblances and differences, but how great are the differences? In the case of damage to the frontal lobe, of course there is a loss of affect. But can we say for sure that social conditioning doesn’t contribute in may cases where we see brain scan differences? The level of depravity, driven by the entertainment industry’s greed, has never been more alarming. Probably there are entertainment executives who can’t wait to offer movie deals and maybe a reality tv show to these girls, because there is an audience for the blend of sex and violence they represent. This sounds sick, but consider not only the Dr. Phil fiasco but the “comedian” Bill Maher telling his national tv audience how much he really, really enjoyed that video, and that the victim had it coming.Given such a corrupt social environment, and sick “entertainment” at anyone’s fingertips, is it any wonder that young people are tempted to act accordingly? Mightnot the results of laboratory testing sometimes reflect socially created depravity rather than an absolute correlation between brain scan results and ability for moral judgment? Also mathematical reasoning is certainly objective, but what do we apply it to? In the case of physics, we measure clear and unambiguous things like space and times. I wonder what parameters we would use to set up a system of rewards and punishments. In educating the young, it is easier. Everyone agrees bullying is wrong (with the possible exception of some ACLU members}. What about a question like this: are the American soldiers who invaded Iraq heroes or criminals? What would count as a rational solution to such cases, quite common, that people want to decide in terms of political philosophies. Also look at economics. Economists have access to the same mathematical tools, yet they split into opposing schools, keynesians, monetarists, etc with no clear criterion for deciding who is right in purely practical terms. Well I think I’ve said enough for now.

• gompertz
  Jul 30, 2008 at 12:46 pm

  Amyv: Yes, I’m afraid you are probably right about Brittany M. Hope the jury is not a s easily fooled as I am. As for any change for the better in their outlook, only time will tell. As for myself I turned to Buddhism after 16 years of Catholic school provided no relief from the tortures of a severely dysfunctional childhood. I felt I had to commit myself wholeheartedly, even fanatically, to make the transition to a more sane life. Without that commitment spurred by suffering I could not have done it. Maybe that is what is needed. Certainly, for these people, hard time is called for. As lost as they are, they have no incentive to change other than that provided by the prison experience. This is not incompatible with compassion, but justice for the victim would demand it. As for suffering leading people to Buddhist meditation, maybe it will happen for Victoria Lindsay(I respect her too much to use a more familiar term of address). Thank God she has that modern Joan of Arc, Gloria Allred fighting for her. I am quite ignorant in legal matters, and I know nothing about Florida laws concerning damages in civil litigation.Does anyone know?

• Greg
  Jul 30, 2008 at 1:16 pm

  Gom I do think there is a social component.
  An individual could be a moral genius but if you put them in a situation where they are surrounded by simpletons their genius probably wont be expressed.

  Bill Maher’s comment was ignorant, but it’s not like he’s known for being a good decision maker or a role model, he’s Bill Maher.

  In general, it appears that the differences in the brain are what help create the differences in behavior. This is why I suggest a neuro-economic approach to behavior modification.

  If you understand how the persons brain works then you’ll know precisely what kind of incentives to offer them, rather than the current one size fits all approach we apply which obviously is not working.

• Amyv
  Jul 30, 2008 at 6:25 pm

  Greg -I do agree with not one size fits all. Each child is different. I never spanked my daughter not once. When she was little a certain look I gave her followed by telling her that her behavior was not appropriate was enough. I do believe I got lucky. Now that she is a teenager restriction is her worst punishment. It drives her crazy not to be able to socialize. Some children this does not work with. Others require different forms of punishment. I do agree with spanking but, only to a minimum. I was raised with 5 siblings. I can count on one hand the times any of us were spanked. I am not saying we were angels but we were taught to respect our elders and authority figures i.e. teachers, police, etc. I was no angel as a teenager. I did all of the typical teenage stuff. My mom, sorry have to laugh now, used to ride around in her house coat and curlers to find me. Embarassment was what worked the best for me. So no, not everyone is going to respond to the same type of punishment. Therefore, rewards are not the one size fits all approach for individuals acting moraly. Yes our society is full of greed. I do not pretend to know what the answer to the decline in morality for our society is. God forbid you are in the situation that their is a terrorist on board a flight or a gunman in your school or office. Yes, you need to defend yourself at all cost. That person is out to kill you and others. So it is kill or be killed. What do you think the incentive was for the people on board the last terrorist flight that crashed in the field? They told their family members they were going to bring the terrorist down to save lives on the ground. No reward for that. They knew their was a huge possibility they were going to die. However, they choice to save others. Maybe genetics are involved to some extent. I am just not sure. One thing my mother taught me I think was more valuable than any other. I was taught that I was responsible for my own actions. She never went for the excuses other parents used. Like hanging around the wrong crowd or so and so was a bad influence. When I got in trouble the blame was all on me. I had to take responsibility for my own actions. No one can force you to do something you know is wrong. I apply this to my parenting with my daughter. You get in trouble, don’t blame it on anyone else. That is a decision you make all on you own. I do and will always believe that teenagers will use this for an excuse. They are taught well by adults. Its societys fault, its the parents fault and in this case its the sheriffs fault. Where does the blame game end. These girls did what they did. They are to blame. They hopefully will be punished according to their crimes. They should work in prison. The money they make should go to the victim. We are not the victims. She and her family are. I have heard conflicting statements on the civil court rights when it comes to minors. None of these girls have money. I don’t think their families do either. Someone please help us out here with the answer? Sorry if I am rambling. I am fighting a cold. Greg - I wish I had a response to all of your statements. I don’t know that their is one answer for why some people have more compassion and empathy than others.

• Amyv
  Jul 30, 2008 at 6:34 pm

  Gom - I am sorry to hear about your dysfuctional childhood. However, this brings up a interesting point. You choose to turn to healthy lifestyle changes to help with your situation. When others use it for an excuse for the rest of their lives for their bad behavior. I have a male friend who had a terrible childhood. Although he has a good job and appears well adjusted on the outside, nothing could be further from the truth. He uses his childhood as an excuse to treat women terribly. What makes people react so differently to the same situations.?

• gompertz
  Jul 31, 2008 at 1:12 am

  amyv, also do not know if these girls are beyond help or not. I don’t know how people would have evaluated a 15 year old Hitler, or a 15 year old Mother Teresa, whether we could have predicted their future at that age. Don’t feel uneasy about your anger toward these girls. I, the Angry Buddhist, fantasized about going down there are performing some mutilations! It’s a normal reaction to an atrocity that we witness with our own eyes. My rage was so great that it led me to review a few verses from the Dhammapada: “He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,” in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease…For never does hatred cease by hatred here below. Hatred ceases by love; that is an eternal law. The world does not know that we must all come to an end here; but those who know, their quarrels cease at once. (end of quote)…It is onlythe last sentence that would be strange for a Christian. It reflects the Buddhist denial of a permanent self, or a metaphysical soul. We are manifestations of voidness, and that is the basis of Buddhist compassion. No future rewards. Of course I oversimplify. But here is how it works in a specific example. Both Christians and Buddhists agree that sexual desire is an impediment to spiritual practice. But how differently they deal with the problem! In Catholic school they told me that if I looked at a girl with desire I commit a mortal sin, for which the penalty is eternal hellfire. Since I don’t want to burn in hell, I repress the desire. And the repressed desire eventually returns in inflated form. Now the woman is no longer just an object of a biological drive, but a Sex Goddess, a supernatural and irresistible temptress. Here is how Buddhism might handle the problem. A monk in old India who is distracted by the sight of beautiful girls is told to go to the place where the dead were dumped in an open field, where they underwent decay. Young girls died also, and monks were instructed to observe the changes their bodies underwent. No longer were these bodies the occasion of desire, but perhaps disgust and revulsion as nature took its course. And so, instead of an exaggerated desire produced by fear and repression, we have the possibility of compassion, as the monk sees that even pretty girls are subject to sickness, death and decay. I have seen that meditation on suffering and death do not make us morbid, but more open to the unity of us all, even (and this is surely hard to accept) Hitler and Mother Teresa, for the ultimate truth is just the Great Emptiness which is our home. Yes, I see I got carried away a little, so let me keep it short. In the last 50 years I have seen a great increase in antisocial behavior. Does this mean that there is a greater percentage of sociopaths, or are people just reflecting the general downward trend in values? I think people are more inhumane because our values are inhumane. Greg’s ideas are good,but how to implement them in such an inhospitable environment? I believe that the spread of Buddhism is one answer. Its austere but honest teaching, its refusal to pander to our sense of self-importance make us realize our unity. Personally i feel it is time for me to be more open about my beliefs, more involved. Looking at things like the Florida case and others, I see the downward spiral leading society to total disaster. These people, vicious and evil they may be, need to be exposed to Buddhism. Why? They are likely to get court-ordered counselling, anger management courses, etc. I am convinced these programs not only do not work, but make people worse. These courses teach people how to be more outwardly nice, more deceptive, how to not get caught. Give these girls tradition courses, and they really will be incorrigible monsters. Some will say they already are. Maybe they are. But they are still young. Maybe some can be saved. Sorry to be so long-winded.I do get carried away sometimes.

• gompertz
  Jul 31, 2008 at 1:08 pm

  Greg: Your neuro-economic approach makes sense to me. I have even begun (belatedly) to study game theory. Very good, but difficult. It is precisely because your ideas are important and need to be implemented that I keep asking: how do we do it? How do we wrest power from the elites who control society in their own interest? Marx offered an answer, based on certain specific notions of how the socioeconomic system would lead to the downfall of the “ruling class”. These predictions failed. We are left with a power structure that controls us in many ways, not lest of which is providing entertainment that keeps the masses hypnotized with sports and pornography. ow we have interactive electronic media, computers, videocams, and so on. Did anyone think people would only use video cameras to record pictures of picnics and clean wholesome fun? Technology keeps getting more powerful and more intrusive. And it is the bad people who tend to increase their power through various techniques of manipulating technology in their own interest while the rest of us passively look on. Although some of the opinions I express may be unwelcome to some, I do believe in severe punishment. Buddhists believe in various hells, just not that they are forever. So Hitler and John Couey may only have to suffer unspeakable burning torment for a few quintillion centuries, a pretty long time. Then maybe they get to start over. Now, I cannot prove to you that through meditation I gain access to a mental state called “compassion” because it cannot be objectively measured. All I can say is that, taking it on faith, anyone who does the same practice will have the same type of experience. But the practical effects of meditation can be measured if enough people participate, because we would see a marked decrease in violence and antisocial behavior. Your ideas would have to implemented from above, by convincing people in power to accept them. My idea of a sort of “Buddhist revolution”, while entirely compatible with the neuro-economic approach, must be seen from the perspective of convincing all the people sitting passively in front of their TV sets to get up and do something! Tai Chi, Qi gong, Taekwando, anything! All leading to the same goal of creating a more involved citizenry who will not passively consume the vile “entertainments” dumped on them by the greedy evil people who control things. Utopian? Of course. But why not worth a try?

• Greg
  Aug 3, 2008 at 8:33 pm

  Gompertz there is no easy solution or quick answer. One solution would be to remake the psychiatry industry and to offer free and perhaps mandatory brain scans to all children as part of an evaluation of brain health.

  Bullying and sociopathic violence is a mental illness. Currently the mental health community spends almost all of its resources trying to help the victims of bullying, such as Victoria, when the people who truly are sick are the bullies themselves.

  One part of this is genetic, that is something we cannot immediately fix, however someday we may be able to screen for traits of mental illness. The main problem is lack of knowledge, we don’t do a good job tracking who the violent people are. We don’t do a good job tracking who the bullies are.

  The elites don’t seem to care either way, they will be in power no matter what. If there are a lot of violent people in society the elites will simply start a war and fight them against each other, or put them in prison. Marx did not have it right because if Marx had it right then communism would have one.

  I propose that we treat this as a disease and as a systematic dysfunction within the structure of society. This dysfunction will ultimately lead to the self destruction of every society the west creates. If you look at each society, going back to Rome, they have all fallen after becoming an Empire and then becoming so corrupt that the economy falls apart and society collapses.

  Rome fell, the US is in the process of falling, it’s going to fail as a system because it’s not designed to last. Tribal society, asian society, and other structures last longer as you mention precisely because in these societies bad behavior is not often rewarded and corruption is minimized.

  This is not to say that there was no corruption in Asia, or in Africa, or in Native America, of course there was corruption, but by design the tribal society of Native America was based on barter which minimized corruption. By design the African tribal societies redistributed their wealth and had mechanisms for solving clan disputes and for promoting clan loyalty.

  Now we look at the USA, there is no mechanism to promote clan loyalty (the loyalty within a family), people who are destructive wont be exiled out of the community like they would be if part of an African tribe. In fact, in the USA destructive individuals have been rewarded for centuries. The individuals who owned and abused slave labor were allowed to keep their wealth, this is seen as a reward, and the corporations involved still exist to this day.

  As a result many individuals and families feel like they got away with getting rich off other peoples work and they’ll continue to change the laws around if they must so that they can keep getting richer off other peoples work. If we look at the USA as a network or collection of families and not merely 50 states, we could solve some of these problems by creating our laws with this in mind.

  We could individualize the tax system so that corrupt individuals pay higher taxes and violent individuals pay higher taxes. We could create laws to promote clan loyalty and personal responsibility. What this means is, the parents should be responsible for the children they create, not society. This would mean giving parents more control over their children, and taking the government out of it, the exact opposite of what we do now.

  We should also see that peace comes from strong and secure families. To promote peace we should create a parenting industry to provide parents with whatever tools necessary to control their bad kids. You say parents can’t watch their kids 24/7? Create tools so parents can, because obviously the governments and corporations can watch us 24/7.

  Community policing, each community could keep profiles on individuals such as mercades. This could be done right now by just creating a wikipedia style website where people can enter a name and upload and rate their experiences with a person. This could all be password protected and if done in a very secure fashion, you could create a community policing industry where the victims of bullying could report on who did what.

  Information is the answer. Information such as this could help people make decisions, if the information is quality information. Second you need to change the structure of the reward mechanisms in society so that the right people are rewarded and not the wrong people.

  Currently society punishes goodness, if we don’t promote goodness then goodness has no value in society because we don’t want to give it a value. How much is goodness worth in $?

  If we decide that it’s supposed to be free, then goodness is clearly worthless to society. The same applies to corporations, how much is socially responsible behavior and our environment worth to us in $?

  If we don’t put a value on it, capitalism wont give it any value, and as a result it will have no value in our society. So all I want is for us to move beyond the limits of capitalism and move onto neuro-economics. Capitalism was brilliant for it’s time, but it must be updated to capitalism 2.0 if we are going to survive as a species. We have to reward greed but we also have to reward goodness, if we reward one without the other, it wont work long term.

• Greg
  Aug 3, 2008 at 8:54 pm

  The way to create change is by creating the engines of change. This starts by determining a set of missions and then distributing the tasks and rewarding the people who complete the task.

  Think of the concept like this, society operates through machines. Capitalism is the eco-system.

  A corporation is a machine. Human behavior is controlled by these machines. A very simple machine can be constructed by using bounties, if you want certain behaviors, and you offer a reward the likely hood of someone accepting your offer increases as the size of the reward increases.

  To give a more detailed examination of the concept, person A wants person B to protect/defend person C. Person A cannot simply ask person B to take such risk without offering something in return, so person A offers to pay person be to protect/defend person C.

  Now let’s take another look, let’s say Person A does not have any money. Person A wants person B to protect/defend Person C, so person A offers to do a favor or series of favors for Person B if Person B defends Person C. This is barter/quid pro quo.

  Now another look, Person A has no money or resources from which to influence the behavior of person B, however Person A has information which Person B wants to remain secret, Person A guarantee’s secrecy in exchange for Person B protecting Person C. This is blackmail.

  In all three examples Person A influences the behavior of Person B, thus Person A has what is commonly known as “POWER”, and “POWER” is the fuel of all engines. All Corporations exist to concentrate power. If you are a good individual and you want to improve life of someone such as Victoria Lindsey, it requires some form of power.

  Now, how could a reward mechanism work? Let’s say you don’t have any money, but you want Person B to defend Person C (Victoria is Person C), instead of offering a reward of cash to Person B, you could offer favor to Person B.
  This would mean Person B would receive a social reward of favoritism, and these rewards could be far greater than what could be calculated.

  Person B could save Person C’s life, it’s documented, Person A should have the resources and mechanisms in place to reward Person B. This is barter/quid pro quo, maybe Person B walks into a bar and gets free drinks from the bar, maybe the local businesses give Person B free services, a free haircut, price reductions, tax reductions, whatever we can think of.

  Do you now see how the reward mechanism can work? The punishment mechanism could be social as well and be just as bad. Higher prices for services, no free support, no favor, long lines for everything. Do you see?

• Greg
  Aug 3, 2008 at 9:03 pm

  Amyv, What if you were Person A, Gomp is Person B, and Victoria is Person C.

  Person B saves the life of Person C.

  How would you Amyv, as Person A, reward Person B? Think about it, and get back to me. The reward does not have to be money, but it must be something measurable, it must be some form of reward.

• Greg
  Aug 3, 2008 at 9:07 pm

  If I were Person A, I’d add Person B to a sort of hero list and pass this list up the chain of my social network. Soon business owners would know, doctors would know, all sorts of people would know, and the people on this list would receive favorable treatment/VIP status from me and my business partners.

  This would encourage people to help those like Victoria Lindsey, and depending on what I have to offer would tell me what rewards I could give, but the point I’m trying to make clear to you all is that part of being a good person is rewarding goodness when you see it in others, especially when you see it in young people in very difficult situations.

• Amyv
  Aug 3, 2008 at 9:14 pm

  Greg - The psychiatric support in our country is deplorable. People with mental illness are placed in nursing homes or prisons. Their is little offered to appropriately deal with the long term effects of mental health issues. I have worked in nursing homes for 10 years. The nurses and staff are not specially trained to deal with these type of individuals so they are warehoused in with the dementia patients. Many of us have long complained about this not being the proper environment to provide safety for others and help for the patients. Jail is just another warehouse for mental health issues. It is not like we all live in Beverly Hills and can go to a luxury treatment center for depression and get appropriate care. So the prospect of the government and the health care system providing brain scans to identify mental health issues is slim to none. The country knows our health care system is in crisis however, psychiatric issues are among the most poorly funded. If you do have a family member or a child who exhibits psych. behaviors good look finding a place for them to get proper treatment. As for “how much is goodnes worth $”? How can you put $ amount on it and how would these rewards be given out”? Do you think even if their was a promise of money if one of these girls would have helped the victim their behavior would have been different? I don’t believe it would. Their reward was the action itself. They enjoyed it.

• Amyv
  Aug 3, 2008 at 9:47 pm

  Greg -We must have been typing at the same time. My last blog was not in response to your last two. I absolutely agree and love your idea of how to reward actions with a hero list. And the other ideas you mentioned. I have been in the position to reward others for their actions. As a Rehab coordinator, I would get a lot of feed back from other employees and patients about the way my staff treated patients. I had the pleasure of working with some very compassinate individuals. The ones that did not last long under my management were the ones who showed no empathy for the patients. They may have had excellent skills but recovery for the patients was impeded by a lack of bonding. The ones that went above and beyond to do even the simpiliest things to make the patients recovery process a little easier were rewarded with respect and larger raises. So in this case their are monetary rewards. But these people did these things out of the kindness of their hearts and empathy for others. I was rewarded by recieving a plaque for the most outstanding teamwork. This was given to me by the owner of a very large company who owned many nursing homes. The pride I felt for all of us was overwhelming. So I do agree, rewarding feels good. However, it seem to be a little more difficult with the teenage generation. Anymore specific ideas in that direction?

• gompertz
  Aug 3, 2008 at 11:23 pm

  Greg, once again thank you for your input. Tomorrow I a going on a trip and will be away from the computer a while so I can only throw out a few general thoughts now. Maybe the best way to begin implementing the changes you advocate is to convince lawmakers, on a case by case basis. rather than looking for one sweeping transformation, something like Hayek in Road to Serfdom. Also, in the schools the young are exposed to fuzzy “postmodern” and “neomarxist” philosophies which often oppose a scientific and mathematical approach to social problems. So the question is, how to combat entrenched special interests in the education establishment? I am pressed for time so just some quick thoughts. To anyone who thought I strayed too far off topic in my last entry, I apologize. I guess I try to expand the discussion and say too much at once. The problem is things move so slowly. On other postings people seem to be going over the same ground over and over with little new input. Amyv did bring up two points that I hadn’t heard, how they only stopped beating her because the grandmother was coming home, and how they forced her, the victim, to apologize. Can we be outraged anymore? The worst of it is, it is nothing unique. There are millions of young people, girls and boys, who are just as bad, many already soing violent acts, others just waiting for the opportunity. Just do a google search of “girl gangs” or “sexual slavery” if you wantto be even more sickened and appalled. Now, it is still more than three weeks until the next pre-trial hearing and the lawyers want to drag this thing out until everyone gives up and loses interest. I wonder what the brain scans of defense lawyers would reveal. Are they just people doing thair jobs, or are they participants in the evil deed by letting the perpetrators escape punishment? The evil overflows. I only bring up Buddhism because the corruption is so great that it seems there must be some intervention from the “spiritual dimension” that could aid in a transformation. And I am not deluded about the difficulties. I know that it is in Southeast Asian countries where people are so poor they sell themselves and their children as sex slaves. And these are Buddhist countries! Sorry I can’t be more positive tonight. Anyway I am now signing off for about a week. Keep hope alive!

• Greg
  Aug 4, 2008 at 8:55 am

  Gomp, lawmakers are not leaders. Lawmakers don’t create change, individuals in society create the change and then bully the lawmakers into passing laws after the fact. So there will be no easy way out, passing a law or laws wont work anymore than before. Because the lawmakers only pay attention when the tide has already turned.

  My advice is to try it on the small local scale, and once you can get it working in a school, a series of schools, a neighborhood, and can produce results, then you start a series of non-profits/NGO’s to interface with Corporations.

  Finally when you have the NGO’s, the Corporations, the neighborhood associations, then you use your might to pressure the local lawmakers in your state’s senate to pass a law funding the programs, the NGO’s, to etc. Government is always the last group to change, and never on the forefront of anything.

  Change starts with the individual, it works it’s way through the local networks and as the networks and movement builds and gains power eventually it reaches the large NGO’s and Corporations who can elect politicians and influence things.

  Also you have to understand, a large number of politicians side with the criminals and are corrupt, unless you have some serious might and influence you wont get far. Just like you wont see a carbon tax for the same reason, and you wont see universal healthcare for the same reason, not because the USA wouldn’t be better if we solved some of these problems but because corrupt criminal minded or in some cases criminals, are literally through force blocking all attempts to implement necessary changes on the federal level.

  So skip the feds, focus on your local government, you can surely gain control over that. Finally you have to make greed work for you, eventually you’ll have to apply corrupt tactics to get the job done, sadly thats still how politics work and you’ll need your own army of corrupt lobby groups, you’ll need your own set of criminals pushing for whatever laws you want to pass, and this means something has to be in it for them if they are going to pass anything.

  The criminals and the corrupt don’t care about victims like Victoria, if they cared they’d have outlawed bullying 20-30 years ago instead of letting Columbine happen and the Virginia Tech shooting.

• Greg
  Aug 4, 2008 at 9:17 am

  Amyv and about whether or not some of them could have been convinced to help Victoria, not all of the girls involved actually hit Victoria or were violent, the girls who were beating her up probably did enjoy it, the signs of a sadist.

  However some of the other girls and people observing the situation just stood and watched, they probably felt indifference towards Victoria and did nothing to help because there was nothing for them to gain personally by helping Victoria. Perhaps they did not really like Victoria very much to begin with and did not care if she were beat up.

  The way to get people to do things for people they don’t like, is to give them incentive. I think with the teenage generation it’s still possible. Many teens go to college and don’t want to ruin their lives, these sorts of teens could be recruited and given an offer to join the forces set up to end bullying, and protect others.

  The reason it’s not happening currently is because parents have spoiled their teens, giving them cars and letting them have stuff without them doing anything to truly earn it. Then people send their kids to school to be bullied, believing that in school their kid can build character, when in reality all the kid learns is either how to fight bullies, how to become a bully, or how to become a victim.

  And in school Gomp is right, teachers deliberately avoid teaching reasoning skills to keep our kids semi-retarded, scientific problem solving is not taught as part of the math requirements, instead we teach kids how to count money and crunch numbers. Critical thinking, logic, strategic thinking, and reasoning is not taught.

  You don’t even have to teach them game theory, just introduce them to chess, explain cause and effect, through chess they learn the value of positioning, the strength of the moves being greater than the strength of the pieces, and they learn long term logical and critical thinking.

  Roleplaying is another way to teach decision making, game theory, and moral reasoning. Finally, when you look at how politics are taught, it’s taught as if politics and social change are an art. Activism is taught, telling kids to go vote, or pray for change, or protest for change, or go to one of those Live8 concerts, etc. And a lot of the time the schools focus on problems across the world in Africa or the third world which can’t be fixed by these kids.

  How about taking these kids to a real prison, showing them the the flaws in the current justice and mental health system in this country, and then asking them to apply science to come up with solutions which are non partisan and which don’t require the support of lawmakers? We don’t do this because we aren’t actually looking for solutions.

  Our schools are afraid of new ideas and often punish the kids who do think outside the box or who ask too many or the wrong sorts of questions. The solutions are always scientific, you can’t turn water into wine, you cannot expect magic to save us, or expect Jesus to return to solve all our problems, or expect the government to solve all our problems, but thats often what we teach kids, we teach kids to tell their problems to others and that someone will rescue them. This doesn’t really work very well when that same kid is introduced to a bully who beats the sh*t out of them for no reason, they can pray to Jesus and that wont save them, they can write a letter to President Bush and that wont save them, they can protest, they do any of that, but ultimately the only thing that will save these kids is if they start fighting back.

  I had to learn how to fight back, and when I did that the bullying ended. Bullies tend to like to attack the small kid who doesn’t fight back or who can’t fight back, preying on the defenseless, and these small kids always outnumber the bully, yet these small kids don’t do anything about it, then they become adults and they still don’t do anything about it, which means some people never learn to fight back or to solve their problems and that is the essence of the problem.

  Every problem has a solution, and every solution can be fought through science. If you teach your kid to take the scientific rather than religious approach to problem solving, they’ll figure out how to deal with the bullies really quick. Natural law.

• Amyv
  Aug 4, 2008 at 12:33 pm

  Greg - bullying has been around for along time. But, I think it has reached a whole new level with this generation. Jumping someone makes them think they are tough and it seems to be a game to them. Of course in this case it was brought to higher level of brutality because of the trapping the victim in the house. That combined with the fact that the victim was living their with her so called “friend”. Bullying at school is totaly out of control. Even the teachers are scared of these bullies. When you reach a point where students beat up teachers, things are definitely out of control. They need to have more security at schools and put in cameras. I know some people think this violates privacy but, something needs to be down to make our schools safer. As far as Columbine and the Virginia Tech. situations, those individuals had severe mental disorders. I agree children are handed everything today and feel entitled to it. They do not learn the value of the dollar or have to work for what they get. They are so overwhelmed with material items already that using that for reward would mean nothing to them. Also, to many repeat offenders are let out of jail to commit crime after crime. They are a menace to society and the punishments are just not their. Is doing the right thing able to be taught? Even with cause and effect, if you are lacking in basic traits such as empathy, can this be taught?

• mike
  Aug 5, 2008 at 4:09 pm

  hi i have been following this since i first saw it on the news. i am not going to say i disagree with anyone however, i really don’t think that you can blame Society for this act nor can you blame the Media(youtube myspace news). The blame HAS to lye with the ones who did the crime. as far as punishment well i’d like to say beat them till they cant move, rip off there cloths and throw them in the middle of a NYC Trainstation. maybe then they will know how it feels to be helpless and humiliated. but most likely these little bastard children will only get a probation and community service. the only thing i can say i blame society for is the outcome of this trial. and seeing as i have such little hope for america, its people, and its future i can assure you that these children will get the smallest punishment they can. Victoria will be a broken little girl for the rest of her pathatic life because of these kids and they will never know what they have truly done

• Amyv
  Aug 5, 2008 at 8:41 pm

  Mike - I agree the best punishment for people is to have done to them what they did to their victim. However, in this case their is no way to cause them the exact pain, physical and emotional distress. If they got beat up, they still would not know how if feels to be held against their will, humilitated, beat and betrayed by a so call friend. And on top of that everything is caught on tape. So, the best justice that can be served is they spend hard time in jail. As for your last statement, hopefully Victoria will have the strength to get through this. Counseling will help. This does not mean she will spend the rest of her life as a “broken little girl’ and have a pathetic life. I understand you do not mean to bad mouth the victim when you say this but, lets give her more credit than that.

• nita
  Aug 5, 2008 at 10:41 pm

  Well I guess that victoria can turn this around and sue christina garcia for saying” she shouldve said what she said if she cant back up her words…oh yea I think tori should wait til christina gets all those millions she plans to get out of her daughters actions and take it ALL

• Amyv
  Aug 6, 2008 at 8:59 am

  Nita - couldn’t agree with you more. Although, I don’t think Garcia is going to be successful in this law suit. She doesn’t even raise this girl. The sheriff just stated the facts. If she wants to act like she is entitled to something for a child that she isn’t even raising then, she can be the one who gets sued for her daughters actions. They caused a much greater amount of pain and financial hardship for the victims family who has had to pay for the medical bills. I think you will see the victims family file some civil cases after the trial is over. How dare this mother think she is entitled to any money in this case. She needs to worry more about what a lousy mother she has been. And once again she is setting a great example for her daughter. She just wants her 15 minutes of fame. In the process she is making herself look like a loser and a fool. She is trash. You could tell that from her very first interview. It is a shame how she is exploiting her daughter. She needs to sit back and shut up. Mother of the year she will never be. Mother period she will never and has never been.

• Mrs Garda
  Aug 8, 2008 at 5:16 am

  Greg–I have to say I love reading your statements. I’m not even going to try to respond to all of it. Do you have a degree in sociology or psychology or are you a dabbler like m’self?

  As I said, I’m a dabbler. But I thought positive reinforcement was when you praised something you wanted a subject to continue and negative reinforcement was when you rewarded them for stopping an action. It’s been a while since i picked up a psyche book.

• Amyv
  Aug 8, 2008 at 9:09 am

  Well we may have the answer to these questions. Guess what? One of these lovely little girls is back in jail. Surprise. Its Mercades Nichols. Once again assault and battery and various other charges. Good luck with that law suit mom. One down 5 more to go. Can’t blame it all on Brittinis influence now. These girls are all friends. So it further shows their character. A danger to society.

• Greg
  Sep 2, 2008 at 5:58 am

  I’m college educated, my degree is in philosophy but I have taken basic psychology classes.

  Operant conditoning is the only scientifically guaranteed way to modify behavior. Praise does not work very well as a reward because praise comes with the assumption that they respect you, that they already see you as a role model, and that you have some sorta supernatural power over them.

  We need to stick to the scientific proven solutions.

  Everybody wants something, figure out what they want and use that as a reward.

  In Positive Reinforcement a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of experiencing a positive condition. For example:

  A hungry rat presses a bar in its cage and receives food. The food is a positive condition for the hungry rat. The rat presses the bar again, and again receives food. The rat’s behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of receiving food.

  In Negative Reinforcement a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of stopping or avoiding a negative condition. For example:

  A rat is placed in a cage and immediately receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses a bar and the shock stops. The rat receives another shock, presses the bar again, and again the shock stops. The rat’s behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of stopping the shock.

  In Punishment a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of experiencing a negative condition. For example:

  A rat presses a bar in its cage and receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again receives a shock. The rat’s behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of receiving a shock.

  In Extinction a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing a positive condition or stopping a negative condition. For example:

  A rat presses a bar in its cage and nothing happens. Neither a positive or a negative condition exists for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again nothing happens. The rat’s behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing anything positive or stopping anything negative.

• Greg
  Sep 2, 2008 at 6:08 am

  “In Extinction a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing a positive condition or stopping a negative condition. For example:

  A rat presses a bar in its cage and nothing happens. Neither a positive or a negative condition exists for the rat. The rat presses the bar again and again nothing happens. The rat’s behavior of pressing the bar is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing anything positive or stopping anything negative.”

  If someone were to save Victoria and experienced extinction, instead of positive reinforcement, there is no incentive for them to continue with this behavior.

• Greg
  Sep 2, 2008 at 6:13 am

  “A rat is placed in a cage and immediately receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses a bar and the shock stops. The rat receives another shock, presses the bar again, and again the shock stops. The rat’s behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of stopping the shock.”

  The bullying creates a shock to the victim which is only ended when the victim fights back, thereby creating a shock to the bully. Bullying in school is conditioning children like Victoria who may start off embracing non violence, into adults who learn that violence is the only way to solve problems.

  Thus bullying helps to produce war and violence, which gets blamed on Video Games, Music Videos, and Myspace rather than the very bullies who are conditioning kids into becoming violent adults. Anyone who has been bullied knows exactly what I’m talking about because they have experienced this conditioning.

  When are we going to end it?

• Louie
  Oct 12, 2008 at 5:20 pm

  I think they should arrest the parents as well for raising such violent girls. The have never showed them to take responsability for their actions.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 17, 2008 at 5:49 pm

  JOHN,
  First off, discovery is only public record when it pertains to adults. My daughter’s pictures, name and address were made public 2 days before she was charged as an adult. You people have been had by PCSO. Just wait and see, the truth is coming. And boy is it a whopper. You dam right I will sue, and not for them arresting her ( for the stupid ones who said this) the bottom line is he should’ve made dam sure of his facts before going public!

• navigator
  Oct 17, 2008 at 10:49 pm

  Christine, (if it is really you .. and I hope it is)

  Your picture should be posted right next to the definition of white trash in the dictionary. You have corrupted your daughter and deserve every bit of humiliation that is coming to you due to this horrific event. You must not have been taught that opening your mouth leaves no doubt of stupidity and you should implement this in your life immediately. No one wants to hear anything you have to say. You only want to make money from this sick and sad event and it has made me and MANY OTHERS want to throw up.

  So shut the H*&^ UP!!

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 18, 2008 at 11:09 am

  : ) Thank you for your opinions, but as we all know opinions are like hmm..well you’re a smart person you know the rest.

• Trench Reynolds
  Oct 18, 2008 at 9:37 pm

  Let’s keep it civil people. Name calling in the comments isn’t necessary since the facts speak for themselves.

• Greg S
  Oct 20, 2008 at 4:40 pm

  Christina, did you feel like you failed as a parent when you saw the video of what your daughter did to Victoria? Do you have any regrets?

  And the final question, what would you say can be done to avoid these situations? You are in a unique position here where you can choose to either help educate the rest of us so we can learn from your mistakes.

• Amyv
  Oct 22, 2008 at 9:05 pm

  Doubtful whether this is really Christina Garcia. But, on the off chance it is here is my reply. Get off your a** get a real job and raise your own kids.

  If anyone had the right to sue it would be the woman who is raising your children since you are obviously not capable. We already know the facts, they were caught on video. But, because of your past remarks that it was a one on one fight (get real) I can see the influence your daughter has had to grow up with.

  However, we all know Christina Garcia is using her daughter to get her 15 minutes of fame and possibly earn money off of this horrible action. Doubtful she will ever see a penny. If she does, get ready for civil suit from victims family. You will need the money.

• gompertz
  Oct 22, 2008 at 11:04 pm

  Amy, I don’t see why this couldn’t be the real Christine Garcia. She displays the same personality traits as what we saw on her TV interviews: imperious, contentious, hostile, and just as eager as ever to blame the victim. The reason for this renewed assault on decency seems to be a continuation of the legal defense team’s attack on Victoria at the deposition. We knew they were going to attack her viciously, what else can they do? This is how defense lawyers operate. Remember the one Fox news exposed a few months ago, In Massachusetts, who boasted that he would destroy a six-year-old rape victim on the witness stand to defend his rapist client? Let us hope that Victoria has the strength to endure such maliciousness! As for this person. I do not hate her, but I have nothing to say to her, it would not do any good. Sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do is to leave people alone. For her daughter I do have sympathy.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 24, 2008 at 10:44 am

  To: Gregs

  Yes I have many regrets on my own behalf, will I spill them all on here in public with so many people that hate me. No way! Someone who really is interested in our real lives, and not just getting in on the hype I would talk to them…and I want to leave you with one thought..does anyone wonder why Gloria A left the Lindsay’s case?

• gompertz
  Oct 24, 2008 at 1:30 pm

  To Christina Garcia-I have said that I don’t hate you and that is true. Still, do you think you have given people reason to have a positive opinion of you? You have appeared on TV and communicated on these blogs, so apparently you care a little about what people think. Now, like most people who follow this story, I don’t know you or any of the others personally. All we have to go on is what we see (including of course the video) and read. The only information you have ever imparted to the public is :VICTORIA IS A VERY TERRIBLE PERSON. Yes, I capitalize it because you certainly do. Still, human beings are complicated, multidimensional beings and I’m sure this wild, horrible girl(as she may well be, for all we know) has some redeeming characteristics. Whatever good she has in her we will not learn from you. And that is the problem. The character traits I attributed to you above are certainly not complimentary. Whether you are that way in person, I don’t know, but somehow iI suspect you are probably much nicer than that offscreen. Yes, people are complicated mixtures of good and bad. The trouble is you are still attacking the victim. After what she went through at the deposition, one would expect at least a glimmer of sympathy from you. But no, you seem to derive vindictive pleasure from her pain. Do you? How does your hard-hearted stance help you, and much more important, how does it help your daughter? After all, she is the one faced with terrible possibilities if SAO have their way. The thing is, I do agree that she was badly treated by the Sheriff and a no-good BF. It is hard to reconcile the cold indifference to Victoria’s pain she showed on the video with the kind-hearted girl who loved bunnies and puppies. What went wrong? Yes, I have read the affidavits pertaining to the second arrest. Stabbed with a pen that left a mark on the skin, giving a push that did no harm. The most serious charge, involving the cars, I have seen that kind of thing handled very leniently here in NY. I don’t know if it was really Mercades who appeared here briefly Sept 7 (better you don’t answer) but I thought it might be. That brief, inarticulate comment sounded like a cry of pain, a cry for help. Just what I would expect from the real Mercades. Anyway I hope you are helping her and not doing more harm. I have spoken on these posts of meditation ands martial arts and compassion. Most people I’m sure think I’m nuts and off-topic. Well, I admit to being nuts, but not off-topic. I think all these things can help, also going to church can help. Not just to impress judge and jury, it’s easy to be cynical about that. You might also want to see what I posted on the Lakeland Wire before and see if it has any merit. Remember honey is better than vinegar. I wish you and your daughter well.

• GregS
  Oct 24, 2008 at 8:13 pm

  Christina Garcia I don’t hate you or your daughter. I’m trying to understand your perspective and your behavior. I’m trying to understand your daughters perspective and her behavior.

  I know you are focused on the trial, but thats the least of my concerns.My main concern is how we can prevent violent situations such as these from occuring at all.

  By now you know that this sort of violence benefits no one, it’s your responsibility to save your daughter from her own violent tendencies. If you are willing to do whats in your daughters best interest, then you’ll find that many people here are wiling to help you out. But her behavior clearly has to change, because the behavior currently on display is unacceptable, and her reputation, is extremely tarnished and on the streets or in the business world we live and die on our reputations.

  I respect the fact that you are brave enough to come to this site to read and respond to these posts. I also respect the fact that you are willing to defend your daughter no matter what. But her behavior must change, for her sake.

• little evil
  Oct 24, 2008 at 10:21 pm

  Has it occurred to anyone that people should be good just because it’s the right thing to do? My parents didn’t bribe us in to good behavior. We all turned out well. Same of my kids.

• GregS
  Oct 25, 2008 at 1:39 am

  Little evil, this is like saying “Has it ever occurred to anyone that people should just be good at math because math is important? Nobody taught me to be good at math, I was born with that talent and so were my kids.”

  The problem with this thinking little evil is you assume everyone has the same genes, the same traits, the same talents, as you. It’s hard to be a good person, it’s hard to be good at life, it’s hard to make good decisions, if it were easy then everyone would be good at it but it’s like with calculus, not everyone is good at that but a select few are talented at math and act like the rest of us should just by our natural genetics be good at what they are good at.

  This is flawed thinking and it only makes the problem worse when you think this way. It’s like with school, some kids naturally are sorta nerdy and good at school, but there is a new program paying kids to go to school and it’s actually working. You can call it bribing them to go to school if you want, but if it results in these kids getting better grades and having better lives, it’s worth it.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 25, 2008 at 11:48 am

  Ok…I must be very careful here as I am sure you understand but honestly the Sheriff made things very difficult for me to handle things as maybe most of you think I should have. First things first we must get through our minds that Mercades did not hit the victim at all. The victim admitted in a deposition this past wed. that Mercades warned her to not go in the house. Also admitting that she went in the house to get her things, left the residence and then went back in. End of her admission BUT I feel it was to finish the arguement she was having with April or Brittany. Here’s my stand…had the sheriff kept things on the down low not told so many many many lies, the public had not been so outraged with hatred saying my kid ( not even speaking on Britts behalf) should spent her life in jail?? Maybe I wouldn’t have had to act like such an ass and I would’ve been able to deal with things the way I wished I could have. Its one thing to scold your child behind closed doors, punish them, in some cases spank them, or even allow them to pay a price within the legal system, but it’s another story when the world comes into your home and says ok..what are you going to do because we all want her hung or raped in prison, or life in prison and even worse things I don’t want to repeat. All I can say is had he not done so much damage to begin with and caused my family ( youngest daughter, my mom, and I) maybe you guys wouldve seen a different side of me. And for the person that commented about me not caring what other people think…you’re right! I am sorry but I was raised that if you stand for something ( which I do ) don’t worry about what others think, go all out and prove your point. And if my point is Mercades life…guess what it will be at any cost, including me holding the ” Worst Mother of The Year ” award.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 25, 2008 at 11:53 am

  also, just for information purposes…nobody else agreed or wanted the stupid video, when everything went down one girl ( not 5 videos) started taping…and whats worse is that is what makes the case so bad and she ( not giving names) had her charges DROPPED! Mercades is sitting on the couch, the little girl in blue has Mercades’ phone, she said give the phone to Tori..

• gompertz
  Oct 25, 2008 at 1:08 pm

  To Christina Garcia-I wonder if your reference to a person saying you don’t care what people think was based on my post, which said “apparently you care a little about what people think…” meaning you do care. That little word “a” is easy to miss but it does change the whole meaning. And I think you do care about your daughter. If you read my whole comment you would see that I feel your daughter got a bad deal, a view for which I don’t get much support, but I look at things calmly and rationally and come to my own conclusions based on the scant evidence available to me, including the affidavits concerning the second arrest. I read the charges, and I would say they are cause for some kind of intervention, but not from the police. I was not one of those who breathed s sigh of relief when that dangerous terrorist Mercades was taken off the streets. I would be happier if they found Osama ben Laden. Why I expressed criticism with your approach was that you seem, in your public appearances, and also here, to focus almost exclusively on Victoria, and I don’t see how that helps your daughter. Most of us, the vast majority, don’t know Victoria, and we hear conflicting accounts of what kind of person she is, how she’s doing now, and so on. If she has acted badly, remember she is just a child, as are the others. And, as I said, we are all human, we are all mixtures of good and bad, iincluding Victoria and also you. The trouble is by attacking Victoria you only hurt yourself and also your daughter, because it makes people less inclined to see that Mercades is also a victim. And since I really don’t know what kind of mother you are, I can’t judge. As for the sheriff, I am a little bit suspicious of his intentions. What purpose was served by releasing the tape in the first place? How did it help Victoria to receive the attention of the whole world in this way? It sure made the sheriff famous. I can’t help but mention, in passing, one point which has been made by myself and only one other person, that is: what’s the difference between the Lakeland six and the Jenna six? Something to think about. Now, not knowing Florida, and not being up one the laws, I have to wonder about this: violent crimes, including those committed by children, seem to result in two extremes: either acquittal, or at least nothing worse than probation, or at the other extreme, harsh punishment. It seems to be where this case is headed. The people on this blog, when they ask what punishment is appropriate, might say, 2 or 3 years of detention for some, a few months for others, and counseling. Lots and lots of counseling. Unfortunately that might not be an option given the charges. I also wonder whether the lawyers for the accused have their own agenda. They want to attack the victim as harshly as they can to create more drama and excitement, which of course makes a better story line when this mess gets televised. Or maybe they think their only chance is to make jurors think Victoria is such a very terrible person that maybe that terrible beating was just what she deserved. Most people certainly don’t think she deserved it no matter how many nasty revelations about her character are placed out there. I think what they did to her was really very bad, but they are not necessarily bad people. They are children who were exposed to a violent culture through the internet(yes, there are horribly violent things on the Internet, and anyone can access them easily). They seem to have no sense of purpose, and no hope, and that is the big picture. It’s not just the parents. And the courts respond in a most negative way. Since you’re down there in Florida,(I’m not) you need to focus on the question why the lawmakers write the kind of laws they do. Also the prison system needs to be reformed. Prison seems to be an even more dangerous place in Florida than elsewhere. Who is influencing the lawmakers? A small but vociferous minority of people who hate children seems to have the ear of the lawmakers and is drowning out the voices of reason. So there it is: join with the voices of reason to counteract the negative ones. How is up to you, I don’t know the specifics of how things work in Florida, you do. The only specific thing I can say is, please don’t think that by tearing down Victoria you are helping your daughter or the other girls. It’s difficult, with SAO and the legal teams all working for themselves and no one else. They really don’t care who they destroy to get publicity. Peace comes through meditation and then the answers appear.

• gompertz
  Oct 25, 2008 at 1:22 pm

  One more point to Christina Garcia: you referred to your own behavior as “acting like an ass.” Well, take it from someone who spent many years acting like an ass, getting drunk and falling down and passing out and, well you get the picture. It’s how you act today that counts. I found peace and meaning through Tai Chi and Buddhism. That may not be your way. But you must find the way that is right for you, for yourself and for your daughter.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 25, 2008 at 1:24 pm

  to gregs and gomp I would be more then happy to speak to you 2 through my personal email at chrs8gar@aol.com…and I already know I will also get hate mail but as soon as I figure out it is not one of these 2 I will simply delete. I will admit that alot of my anger and frustration as a mom might have been misplaced.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 25, 2008 at 4:32 pm

  And what he said and did was not covered under the ” Sunshine Law” which is the only the an officer has to protect himself.

• GregS
  Oct 26, 2008 at 7:33 am

  This is unrelated, but you might find this interesting.

  Evolutionary Psychology

  One question for everyone is what impact does capitalism have on the evolutionary psychology of man? I’ve come to the conclusion that capitalism is currently dumbing us down rather than lifting us up because the altruistic and good aren’t getting rich and so their offspring are less likely to pass on their genetic material, which results in the dumbing down effect. And as a species, dumbing down increases our likely hood of extinction. I believe we all share an interest in this because eventually our offspring will have to mate with each other.

  Another question is what effect does the media have on mating habits? Yes I recognize this might be off topic as well, but it’s a legit question.

  Christina, I emailed you, you know what time it is.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 26, 2008 at 1:34 pm

  hey gregs..” its that time again” thanks

• Amyv
  Oct 27, 2008 at 4:34 pm

  In response to the Jena 6 comment, I don’t see the comparison. Or maybe their is. They were judged to harshly. However, they jumped a student, not the one who hung the nooses. And, kept beating him after he was lying on the ground unconscious. They also threatened other white students they had on a list.

  They then went to jail. However, the whole case was turned into a racial issue. Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson to the rescue. What punishment the boys got little to none. As a matter of fact they were honored at a music awards ceremony. What??? A few already had previous charges for acts of violence. And, now the main perp is in jail again along with one of the other boys for, guess what, an act of violent.

  So essentially no punishment. Rewards for their behavior. The victim got no justice.

  We will see what happens in this case when the trial is over. I suspect all of the girls are going to be pointing fingers at the others. Including their family members. The victim ZERO blame. No and, ifs or buts.

  Curious about the tape. Stated no one wanted it. However, right after the beating, they all watched it. So they must have wanted it taped for something. I am sure no one wanted the tape after it was shown on t.v.

  Once again, these girls will not go to jail for life. Florida does not have the worst juve. treatment. We have continuous repeat offenders that just rotate in and out of the system. Please show me statistics of mistreatment of juves. in Florida compared to other states. Not just one or two incidences.

• gompertz
  Oct 27, 2008 at 8:03 pm

  Amy, welcome back. Of course the Jenna 6 thing has racial overtones, and this case doesn’t, at least shouldn’t, although I wonder if you are aware that on some forums pertaining to the Lakeland case, people introduced race into it in quite gratuitous ways and the discussions just went off one tangents, like whether blacks or whites are inherently more violent and so on. So race is never far below the surface and no need to go into that here, but there’s a book by Larry Elder that talks about these things, I forget the title, you might know it. About Mercades, you know we have never really seen eye to eye about that. But that’s why we have these discussions, people have different views. So let me reiterate my view. As far as what we see on the video, I can’t judge. I think there are multiple explanations for her action or inaction there, and we will have to wait for further revelations at the trial. But her previous troubles with the BF, including everything on the affidavits do not strike me as warranting harsh treatment. No doubt, these actions reveal a troubled young person in need of intervention. But I never saw her as a dangerous persons. The ones who did all that hitting, might be a different story. Yes, the car incident and the threats are serious, but I’ve seen how leniently such things are usually handled, and I can only suspect the Sheriff has his motives in singling this one out for special treatment. Not only what I’ve seen in NY, but in places across the country where I have friends, people just haven’t seen the actions she is accused of being treated with such severity. In one case a girl is hit by a car driven by a rival(not run off the road but actually hit) and sent to the hospital. The penalty is a night in jail and probation. And so it goes. People on various forums speak of the act of sending a valentine as if it were an act of violence. It was a violation of a court order, yes, but as far as I know, the valentine did not explode. Let me repeat:the beating of Victoria is different from this, and we will have to wait and see how the jury sorts out the degrees of guilt of the participants. But in taking a wait and see attitude we also have to examine our own views insofar as they may have been influenced by the way the case has been presented. We hear Mercades referred to as the “ringleader” and right away, we are tempted to judge prematurely. Think about the myspace account that was so disgusting that was supposed to be hers. It is several monthss since that was revealed to be a fake, yet it still gets quoted as if it were genuine. As for Mercades mother, it is admirable to see a mother try to protect her child. I do think she was too aggressive in trying to defend her, and that turned people against her. But the real damage was the interference by Dr. Phil. By his bumbling self-serving actions he gave the proceedings a circus atmosphere, and it is why people get the impression that Christina Garcia is only in it for money. Again, something about which we can have an honest disagreement. It is clear that the press gets a lot of things wrong, not because they are malicious, but because they are sloppy. When the law suit against the sheriff was announced, Bill Oreilly did a brief report. Now, I am a great admirer of Bill Oreilly but he botched that report. They kept talking about how the mother of the girl in the video was suing the sheriff. Now, true, Mercades did appear in that video, but the image theyr showed was of Hardcastle repeatedly hitting Victoria, and you got the distinct impression that that was the girl whose mother was suing. And when they mentioned the name of Mercades the mix up was complete. It probably isn’t much in the big picture, but all these little inaccuracies help to create a public impression that may be wrong in some important aspects. I think Mercades and her mother had valid reasons for wanting to say something to clear up certain points, but I think the judge was on solid legal grounds in not allowing it. If he lifted the restrictions on Mercades, it would have been hard for him not to do it for all of them. Now each of these girls has their own degree of guilt in what is certainly a serious crime(see,I never denied it is a serious crime). And if they all come out and speak publicly, we have a confusion of voices contradicting each other, blaming each other, and creating chaos which the public couldn’t sort out. o all will have to wait to sort it out in court, and hopefully soon. As for what is happening now, it is appalling and just what I feared. You have expressed your view several times as to what you think appropriate punishments should be, and I agree with your assessment. But a fair and balanced judgment gets less and less likely as SAO and the legal teams are locked in mortal combat and don’t care who they destroy. If as I hear some of the families of the accused have bought into the strategy of destroying Victoria to save their daughters, they are risking disaster. I have great misgivings about the motives of SAO and the lawyers, who knows what corruption has influenced their calculations. But that is too depressing a subject to enter into here. Amy, we have some differences of opinion here, but I always respect your honest and open idea. Your questions about Florida’s policy toward incarcerating juveniles, and whether it is harsher or less so than other states, I cannot answer, I only know these claims have been made repeatedly. I myself have asked for answers and haven’t received any.

• gompertz
  Oct 27, 2008 at 10:02 pm

  Amy, the name of the Larry Elder bookis “The Ten Things You Can’t Say in America.”

• GregS
  Oct 28, 2008 at 4:24 am

  Gomp can we at least agree that the girls who actually beat Victoria deserve prison time? The girls who did physically beat Victoria should get years in prison. They are on tape beating Victoria.

  I don’t know what Mercades level of involvement is, it could be that we don’t have good information. The police say Mercades lured Victoria into the house, but also in the video Victoria says she cares about Mercades, it’s complicated.

  As far as running people off the road, thats a very serious crime. Whether Mercades is the ringleader or a follower, she’s involved with people who are thugs.
  
  “Now, true, Mercades did appear in that video, but the image theyr showed was of Hardcastle repeatedly hitting Victoria, and you got the distinct impression that that was the girl whose mother was suing.’”

  I just noticed that too. They do seem to be pinning the blame on Mercades with little to no evidence released beyond whats on the tape, and Mercades is barely seen at all on the tape.
  I also read the transcript and Mercades is not the person doing most of the talking, so I think we can come to the agreement that Mercades did not assault Victoria. Instead Mercades will probably be charged with some lighter offense.

  We will see what happens when the trial starts but definately and absolutely the girls who are beating on and talking to Victoria like that in the video deserve real prison time. Mercades is under house arrest, I don’t know what shes been charged with or what evidence they have, but if she’s not the ringleader then eventually the truth will come out.

  I think the reason the public blames Mercades is because of how the video is presented. When all of us saw the video, they show a big picture of Mercades which fades in, then they show the video, then the police and experts talk about how the persons in the video show no mercy and no remorse. And of course as they talk about that, they show all the girls pictures.

  So I see your point as to how the media has been sloppy, butI don’t know if you can completely blame the media. The real tape wasn’t shown to us until months later, a lot of people saw the heavily censored shorter version and I didn’t see Mercades at all in the short version.

  In the long version of the video Mercades is in it, but she’s not doing anything to help Victoria from what I could see. It’s an absolute must that persons who physically assaulted Victoria get prison time, it must be done as a deterrent.

• GregS
  Oct 28, 2008 at 4:43 am

  What they, the media should do, is wait until the details of the case come out so that the quality of the information is better. But also the media has a responsibility to discuss the girl who actually physically attacked Victoria. That girl is Brittni Hardcastle.

  In discussing Mercades and the others they should discuss how and why someone would sit and do nothing while their “friend” is being beat up in their house. I think now the media is so silent that its only making things worse.

  I go to the video on youtube and people are seeing it for the first time and still as pissed off as they were when it came out 6 months ago. I hear Mercades and her family have received death threats, which is entirely wrong, but which probably came about due to the fact that they claim Mercades is the ring leader.

  I don’t claim that any of these girls are innocent, but what do people hope to accomplish by sending them death threats?
  Some even sent death threats to the two guys, who probably didn’t even know what was going on.

  But of course when the media talked about it, it was 8 people following a plan thought up by Mercades to trap and torture Victoria for 30 minutes. Now, there might have been a plan, but can we say for sure that Mercades planned it?

  I think the problem Mercades is currently facing is that her reputation is damaged now to the point that people believe she had her friend set up whether or not there is any proof.

  Did Mercades really call Victoria and tell her to hurry and get back to the house? If there is evidence that she did, then the police and media consensus will be that Mercades lured Victoria to the house. The stalking charge against Mercades and running people off the road only makes it more believable that she could have lured Victoria to the house, even if it has nothing to do with the case involving Victoria, Mercades is being convicted in the trial of public opinion.

• GregS
  Oct 28, 2008 at 4:58 am

  About race, I don’t think race plays a role in whether or not a person is good or bad. I think people who do bad stuff and who hurt people like to hide behind their race as a way to protect and shield themselves.

  Just look at how O.J. Simpson became a black man for his trial. Suddenly he wasn’t just O.J.Simpson, he was the “black” O.J. Simpson. And it worked, the black community fell for it that one time, but when he tried to do it again, with a different generation of blacks, they saw through it. I think there are whites who do the same thing, they hide behind their race because they know nobody likes their behavior, but at least they are white right?

  If there are different types of humans, I divide humans by behavior. It makes no different to me that Victoria Lindsay is white, it’s the situation she’s in that matters, and it’s the behavior of the people putting her in that situation.

  I think there are only two types of people in this world, predators, and everybody else. The predators prey on the weak, and they exist in every race equally. Each race has to manage it’s predator population or each race will self destruct.

• GregS.
  Oct 28, 2008 at 5:50 am

  Just look at this Amyv
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbIduxCX5Yk

• gompertz
  Oct 28, 2008 at 8:53 am

  Greg, you ask “Can we at least agree that the girls who actually beat Victoria deserve prison time?” Yes, of course I think they deserve that sort of punishment. How much time they get is up to the judge, and he may go easier on them if they show remorse. However, as far as the beating, the tape does speak for itself, and it’s pretty clear they won’t be able to justify it by any further revelations, and if they try to blame the victim will only make matters worse. As for my more favorable opinion of Mercades, I did try to look at it rationally, but partly it is emotional. The first thing that impressed me was the report of her care for animals. I know that love for animals is not a decisive factor in evaluating a person’s character, and there’s always a cynic who will point out that Hitler was a vegetarian. Still, for me, at least, it’s something that counts in the person’s favor. As I said, it’s an emotional reaction. What further repelled me was the degree of malice shown by many commentators on the blogs, and even more so in the newspapers. I found it peculiar that so many commentators seemed obsessed with demeaning the physical appearance of Mercades and the other girls. Since I found nothing displeasing in the purely physical appearance of any of them, I thought the constant “fat and ugly” references out of place. I wonder if some of the people making these comments really enjoyed that video on a subliminal level, but couldn’t admit to themselves that they enjoyed it. Taking pleasure in watching a girl be brutally beaten certainly doesn’t agree with one’s image of oneself as a decent person, and so such pleasure cannot be admitted. However, since the enjoyment is too strong to be simply repressed, it must be actively opposed. An example of this phenomenon would be someone with homosexual tendencies who cannot admit these feelings, so he becomes a crusader against gay rights,touring the country preaching about the evils of homosexuality. Anyway I am always suspicious of intense passions of aversion for some individual or group. So these extremely negative comments, like the death threats, really made me feel a little pity for the perpetrators. Now, when Mercades was arrested a second time, there was new flurry of insults, directed against her alone.I examined what evidence was available, and I concluded that her punishment was not warranted, either by the sheriff and SAO or by the people attacking her in the papers. I do understand that the charges are serious. The people in the car could have been injured. The fact remains that such incidents have usually been leniently dealt with. Take the case I mentioned above, where a girl was actually hit by a car driven by her rival, and the punishment was light. I do feel that the punishment should have been much more severe, but the courts don’t care what I think, and in fact they consistently give very lenient sentences for worse things that what Mercades was accuse of. When we see someone receive a punishment far in excess of what is usual for a particular offense, we are justified in looking for a reason. A reason is not hard to find if we look at the behavior of the sheriff. Just the fact that he released the tape to the public at all, when it was sure to cause even greater pain to the victim, demonstrates his intention to use this horrible event to enhance his reputation as a tough lawman. The arrest of Mercades just added to his image, coming as it did right after her mother filed the lawsuit. And when people point out that it was SAO and not the sheriff’s office that ordered the arrest, are they suggesting that SAO and PCSO don’t work together? Of course none of this is conclusive. But that alone should make people careful in jumping to conclusions. As you say, there are so many factors here that have not been sorted out, such as Mercades’ seeming acquiescence in the beating, that hopefully will be more clear when it finally goes to trial. I do wish that those who express opinions would reflect on what they write and consider the hurt that it can cause. Yes, I understand that people are free to express whatever they want. But they are also free to reflect on what they express and what it means. My main concern, as always, is with the well-being of Victoria. and I think that goes for most people out there. There are some really positive ways to show support for her.

• gompertz
  Oct 28, 2008 at 9:16 am

  I also want to comment on the tendency of some people to drag race into everything. There is a certain white supremacist web site, where they express hate for everyone who isn’t white. They even express contempt for white people who study martial arts, because they say it’s part of Asian culture and thus corrupts “the white race.” Now, when the first pictures of Victoria Lindsay came out, these geniuses made the observation that she looked “rather Jewish.” So, they said, let’s do some research on her ancestry, because if it turns out she’s Jewish, well, she had it coming. So they did their research and were satisfied with her “ethnic purity”. They then put out their account of the beautiful aryan princess who was attacked by a “multicultural gang.” I refuse ti jeopardize my sanity by trying to figure that out, but it shows again that if someone wants to make anything into a racial issue, it can be done if you try hard enough.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 28, 2008 at 10:14 am

  I just wanted to say I appreciate some of you reserving your judgment until all facts are on the table, and seeing through the Sheriff’s lie and motivations, and I wouldn’t put it past him to have put the victim under alot of pressure to back him up, ending in her having to get the heck out of here, she no longer lives in Polk County. And I also respect the canstructive critism. And I am listening, and thinking about everyone on here minus anyone who thinks Mercades deserves major time in jail.

• amyv
  Oct 28, 2008 at 12:38 pm

  Greg - Thank you for the additional information. Watched the tape. I had not seen this news on t.v. I suggest everyone who wants to discuss issues further go to this web site.

  Very disturbing what this boy says. But, we have already seen people blaming him for Mercades actions. Just like the sheriff is to blame, the media and of course all the girls fear of Brittini Hardcastle.

  I am sorry Ms. Garcia but, your daughter has got to be held responsible for her actions. Everyone can not be to blame and crucifying your daughter unfairly.

  The victim, as far as the facts I have seen has been very truthful about the events. Telephone records should show how many times she was called before arrivilng at the house to further back up her version. She truthfully said Mercades never touched her. However, Mercades made no effort to help her “friend”,
  drove Victor in her grandmothers car. Even though, the victim did not want to get in the car.
  And possibly most disturbing “Don ‘t hit the shelf”.
  Not “Quit beating the crap out of my friend”.

  I wander why Victoria felt the need to leave towm. Couldn’t be because these girls still live their. And, she still may be scared if threats made after the first beating. It is all because of the sheriff?

  Please, lay the blame on the people who commited the crime. The tape speaks for itself.
  Lets help stop violence and bullying by our teenager.s

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 28, 2008 at 3:05 pm

  I have never said Mercades shares no blame. EVER! And I am sorry as well, but the victim has not been completely honest, Mercades is still a teenager and we do not have the same mindset..period. I have admitted she is to be held partly responsible, so why is she the only one being attacked?? Just because the other mothers don’t have the ass to show thier face? I have already admitted that maybe my anger was misplaced, but I want Tori to be honest about Mercades telling her to leave and also she asked Mercades to take her to CVS…I am tired of hearing how Mercades forced her into the car, this will all come out. The deposition reflected all of this and I have to admit I am relieved. I never put the blame on everyone else..but she didn’t touch her and yet she is getting all the heat. And like others on here pointed out, it is because the Sheriff felt impelled to magnify her, because I called him out on his lies lies lies. Thank God, Mercades has a STRONG backbone like mommy. Bullies do have to be stopped, we need programs something within the schools and online, as the victim was involved in bullying others online and in school ( This is no excuse for the violence! ) The school they attended is horrible filled with hate, racism, and the mean girl mentality. I feel sorry for Tori, she was rejected by people she loves, therefore feeling sad, angry, and rejected…hence lashing out for attention AND the same goes for everyone, one of the suspects’ mother wasn’t even here in Florida she was living with another family member. And Mercades?? She has rejection issues, but its not from me, anyone can ask her thierselves. I didn’t just come into this picture I have been here. I was very strict on her, ending in some misfortune, but nobody can say I rejected her. I love her through good and bad. I only want the truth to come out, I don’t hate Tori : * ( I was angered by the Sheriff making things up..and by the way her papa’s ashes were in that shelf that everyone is talking about.

• amyv
  Oct 28, 2008 at 9:48 pm

  Christinia - By no means do I blame your daughter alone. We all can see who was the worst of that bunch. However, they all have commited a crime and showed their bullying on tape. Even if this was by their inaction to help the victim.

  The problem I believe that makes your daughter look bad, besides being their, is that Victoria said on the tape “mercades you are my friend”. And your daughter did not help her. I do not know what the victim said at her deposition. That is one of the reasons I have stated before that it is up to a judge and jury who have all the facts to decide appropriate punishment.

  And, I do have a teenage daughter. I know girls can be mean and cruel. But, they have to be punished for their actions. We also have not had access to the full tape. However, what we have seen, without any other parties involved was horrific.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 29, 2008 at 9:49 am

  Thats just the thing you have seen all the tape there is. Just another lie from the Sheriff saying that the tape was 30 minutes long. Look, Mercades will have to live for the rest of her life the night she was a coward, it will taunt her for the rest of her days, I know this because she is made up from some pretty strong stuff in her blood. But to call her a bully is wrong..if you think about it trying to deal with being a coward is way worse then being a bully. Nobody will ever know if she was scared of Brittany inside or if it was more of wanting to fit in. Or if in her teenage mind she thought ” well, I told her many times not to go in the house and that those girls were in the house, and she chose to go argue with these girls, I did my part to save her from danger” The Sheriff painted the picture as if Tori went inside and people just jumped her all at once, but her testimony among others plainly states she went into the residence for her things, went outside to put her things in the car, and then when Brittany was yelling at her she went back into the house to argue. You know what, I don’t want to tell ” Our Truth” anymore, it can’t come from us, it needs to come from the victim. I have pictures of Mercades and Tori together, when Tori’s parents kicked her out and she was sleeping in cars or on the streets it was Mercades who begged and pleaded to give Tori a place to stay, only for Tori to take my mom’s car in the middle of the night without permission, when my mom woke up at 6am to go to work not knowing where her car was, being late for work. But hey, she is a teen and we all know this, and teens are difficult, but I have my own teen and her dad should’ve stepped up to the plate and dealt with problems. I had my own problems with Mercades, but it stayed within the family as teen problems should, and I NEVER kicked her out into the street. All of these girls have problems some more then others. And one night in March it went horribly wrong.

• gompertz
  Oct 29, 2008 at 10:11 am

  To Christina and Amyv- I want to thank both of you for raising the discussion to a higher level. Your honest and open exchange of views gives me hope that something positive may come out of this tragic incident after all.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 29, 2008 at 10:20 am

  I have to correct something I just seen..I wrote Tori’s testimony and I meant her statement. Sorry

• GregS
  Oct 29, 2008 at 12:01 pm

  I think the point Christina is making is that Mercades is not a bully. And based on the evidence there is no reason to believe Mercades is a bully. Hardcastle is the bully.

  I now understand Christina’s perspective. The media has twisted our perception in such a way so that we’d pin the majority of the blame on Mercades. The media gave Mercades the nickname “the ring leader”. The media also would show pictures of Victoria getting beat up by Hardcastle on the left, while slowly zooming into the face of Mercades on the right, and talking about the attack as if Mercades is the one beating up Victoria.

  I did objective research and I found that this is a common technique. They used this same technique to link Saddam to 911, remember that?
  Here is a video example of the trick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqc2CtzYCQ

  This video here is proof that the media does manipulate our perception of Mercades, as the same manipulation you see in this video is what you see in the video I showed Amyv earlier. It’s not just happening to Mercades either, the more you watch news broadcasts the more you’ll notice dirty tricks and techniques.

  Important questions:

  1. why was Mercades singled out to such a degree where she’s labeled the ringleader?(If you pay close attention to the tone of voice, the media calls her the ringleader in a way which sounds like it’s her mafia nickname and not just an opinion.)

  2. Why is it that in certain videos where they show the pictures and faces of all the teens, do they always seem to zoom directly into Mercades face and not Hardcastle or the others? (Pay close attention and you’ll notice that they slowly and eerily zoom into her face in the same way they do with Bin Laden, Pedophile, etc)

  3. Why is it that we aren’t hearing anything at all about Hardcastle? She’s the girl beating Victoria up on tape.

  These are 3 questions which I want answers to. If anyone wants to understand the reason for these questions, look at all the media broadcasts you can find and watch them over and over again, pay close attention to the details until you begin to notice the little tricks being used. I know I cannot be the only one who sees this.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 29, 2008 at 1:49 pm

  I appreciate the support I am starting to recieve, keeping in mind that I am Pro Tori, but I want the truth to come out, and I am dead set against how the system has animalized my daughter, she is human too.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 29, 2008 at 1:51 pm

  And the media had help..without the Sheriff they would have had nothing to feed off of, he handed Mercades’ head over to the media on a silver platter.

• GregS
  Oct 29, 2008 at 2:23 pm

  Christina if you are pro Victoria hopefully when you write your book you will donate a portion of the profits either to Victoria or to charity. This will be good for your Karma and will help restore you and your daughters reputation.

  You are in the interview with Greta, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34P94JliUX0 and you basically have said the same stuff you told all of us. The evidence indicates that you are being truthful.

  And while I agree that your daughter isn’t a bully, I do think Hardcastle deserves some real time in real prison. She has to go to prison to send a message to the others. I don’t know exactly what your daughter is being charged with, but if he’s not the ring leader and Hardcastle is the ring leader, then maybe she should testify under oath that Hardcastle is the ring leader. Cara Murphy didn’t prevent it from happening but she’s not being called the ring leader, and I think the reason why is because Cara Murphy is willing to testify, or at least thats what I heard.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 29, 2008 at 6:55 pm

  Acually Cara Murphy’s charges were dropped some time ago. But refuse to be bitter about how she didn’t do anything to stop Hardcastle and still was released of all charges. I just have to press on and only worry about teaching my daughter a lesson in a reasonable way for being involved with bad people, but at the same time making it clear exactly what she is guilty of ( not getting involved or getting in between them) but that’s it, and I need to be sure that everyone knows the truth, so that this hang her mentality goes away. As far as ” The Book” if it suceeds, I want to start an organiztion for bullying in schools and online and also working against corruption within the legal system, but only after I pay off everything I have had to borrow against to get Mercades a high priced attorney, which I wouldn’t have had to do had the Sheriff not have made this into such an ordeal at my daughter’s sake. I won’t know where to start something like this, so if anyone has any experience let me know.

• gompertz
  Oct 30, 2008 at 2:36 am

  Here are a few more ways that our perception s can be skewed by the way things are reported. I refer only to the case involving the BF. As I said many times, Mercades’ role in the beating of Victoria is another issue, and full of questions that hopefully will be answered in court. I hope that those questions will be examined calmly and objectively, which seems unlikely to happen if the defense team makes good its threat to turn the trial into a circus. Now as for the charges in the case with the BF, I do admit that they should be taken seriously. I merely suggest that some reports present these charges in a way that could distort our judgment. As to the incident with the pen, some reports state simply “she stabbed her boyfriend” or “she stabbed him with a pen.” Compare that with what the affidavit says: “suspect stabbed (name deleted) three times in the hand with a pen…advised the incident did not cause any permanent damage but left several marks where the pen had left ink behind.” The online dictionary definition of stabbing has (1) a wound produced by a pointed weapon (2) a thrust of a pointed weapon. Wikipedia says “A stabbing is the penetration of a sharp or pointed weapon at close range…” And I do think that when most people think of “stabbing” they have a mental image of wounding caused by penetration. Yet the affidavit clearly states the pen did not cause permanent damage, and left some ink marks. It seems some term like “marking” or “nicking” would be more appropriate. Of course those terms don’t make for such a dramatic account as “stabbing”. I only want to look at one more charge, from the same affidavit, which states:”The suspect began making threats to (name deleted) in the note advising she was going to have a group of boys beat him up after school…” Now, I do think that kind of threat should be investigated. But what would this investigation show? What resources did Mercades have available to carry out this threat? Was such a group already assembled to carry out the threat? Did she have a gang of minions at her command? Maybe, but the reports did not say. Am I the only one who wondered about that? I’m not trying to act as counsel for the defense. What I am saying is that we have here a case of the media creating false impressions by what they say and don’t say.

• Didacticus
  Oct 30, 2008 at 9:17 am

  Some notes:

  First, it is NOT criminal in Florida to you fail to stop, or try to stop, or report, a crime in progress. Even law enforcement officers are NOT charged with a crime when they do not report a crime in progress even if they were right there.

  Second, Cara’s lawyer said she did try to stop the beating several times, albeit not forcefully enough. Also, one girl (not Cara) can be heard very clearly yelling at Hardcastle three times LET HER RUN AWAY.

  Third, it is amazing that people want any of the girls, and Mercades in particular, to go to PRISON. In Florida, ADULTS nearly NEVER go to prison for MISDEMEANOR battery, and rarely go to JAIL. Most of the time they get PROBATION, occasionally COMMUNITY CONTROL (a form of house arrest) for up to a year.

  And yet so many people want these CHILDREN — even those who merely failed to STOP the beating — to end up in PRISON. That means spending more than a YEAR in a place that is dangerous, psychologically damaging, that effectively denies young people any education beyond 8th grade, and has been shown to generally INCREASE the likeliness and gravity of criminal behaviour in children and young adults.

  Again, it is amazing how VICIOUS adults can be towards children while being so tolerant of a system that is often lenient on adults who abuse children.

• Didacticus
  Oct 30, 2008 at 9:29 am

  One more note, this one to Christina:

  Keep in mind you do NOT know if the inaccurate description of events by Tori was intentional. Concussion is well known to cause considerate loss and disruption of memory. Furthermore, it has been shown to lead to FALSE memories, simply because the brain constructs meaning out of jumbled and incomplete memories at a time when the person’s faculties to rationally control such process. And for about three to four days after a even a moderate concussion, the brain is affected, going into essentially a minimal operating mode and relies much more on instincts rather than on reasoning — and it is during that time that Tori gave all of her initial statements.

  If you’re the real Christina Garcia, try to treat Tori the way you would treat Mercades. If all people found in their heart the ability to treat children at least half as good as they wished others to treat their own children, the world would be an immensely better place.

• Truth
  Oct 30, 2008 at 7:17 pm

  Christina, I would like to take this opportunity to correct you on a few things as I know them to be the truth. I know the Lindsay’s, although not a family member. Gloria Allred was released by the Lindsay’s because they could not afford her expenses even though the legal fees were pro bono. Period. Tori was never kicked out of her home. She was a runaway many times and her parents tried everything in their power to keep her there but met the Polk County resistance from police, DJJ, DCF. Every time Tori’s father caught up with her and brought her home, she would just wait until they went to sleep to run away again. The Lindsay’s have put her through counseling, work programs, medicine, and therapy. Didn’t work. Tori was a freebird who did not want to listen to her parents rules and did not want to live there either. She lied her way into people’s homes and not one phone call was made to her parents or police. Although admiral for taking her in, they were actually causing more problems by not checking on Tori’s stories about her parents. The Lindsay’s are distraught over all of the children involved and have publically forgiven them on tv. The Lindsay’s have also taken the high road about the situation and have never demeaned or insulted any that were involved. They have three other children to think about and have been inundated with media, medical bills, loss of employment, and loss of medical insurance. They also have not made one penny from any of this. The GMA interview that will take place has no focus on the case other than how Tori is now. Not so good though, she is no angel by far. Please accept this truth from me as I have no animosity or bad feelings for you or your daughter. May God bless your family and I hope things work out for you. Remember, the Lindsay’s never pressed any charges in this matter. The State did. Thank You

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 30, 2008 at 8:06 pm

  Truth:

  I refuse to argue about anything that has to do with Tori. And you know why? Because I don’t hate her like alot of people think, I feel bad for what happened to her, and I feel bad about my statement that was not only my misplaced anger, but also twisted. I stand by everything I have said here as truth. But Tori is a victim not a target and I refuse to speak about her in any way negative. As far as GMA, we shall see what will be said. God Bless you and may God bless and watch over Tori.

• gompertz
  Oct 30, 2008 at 11:17 pm

  What I am going to say now I have been thinking about for some time. and it is not out of some fleeting emotion that I say it. Once on this forum I referred to Mercades as a coward. I am very sorry I said that. You see, everyone is a coward sometimes. I retain enough from my days in Catholic school long ago to remember the story of how Peter denied Christ because he feared for his own safety. He regretted it bitterly. Then he found his courage and did great things. Take it literally or symbolically, it doesn’t matter. The point is that you can go from being a coward to being a hero, and if someone you care about has been hurt by your wrong choice, you can redeem yourself if you try. I would say that with all she has been through, with being arrested and having to endure all those insults from so many people, Mercades is a hero.

• amyv
  Oct 30, 2008 at 11:40 pm

  I do not think any of these issues will truely be answered until this case goes to trial. If this is the full tape, and the sheriff lied, that wlll come out in the wash. Surprised if this is true that it has not been brought up before.

  I do agree I always felt ringleader should have been attached to Brittini Hardcastle. However, I believe the name was attached to Mercades because the assault happened in the house she was living at. So the girls were all basically there to hang out with Mercades.

  As for Cara trying to stop the fight, first time that information has been put out either. As a matter of fact after her charges were dropped she said she didn’t think at the time of the beating it was a big deal. I did not hear her comment once that she tryed to intervene.

  And, when the comments were made about letting Victoria go, I believe that was after the girls that said it, got their licks in. Especially, April Cooper.

  Just to much here say, until the trail shows real evidence. But, as I said before the part of the tape we did see speaks volumes and is extremely disturbing. Whether, the girls were actively beating, encouraging in the background, taping, blocking the doorway or just idely sitting by is all very disturbing.

  Christrina, I truely hope you are not planning on writing a book about this crime. That would be inappropriate and would give those that attack you and your daughter further ammunition. No monentary benefits should be claimed for this crime.

  I still see a trend, not specifically you Ms. Garcia, but also others to paint the victim in a bad light. Very subtly but, still inappropriate.
  None of these girls seem to have come from a stable home.

  But, just as I don’t feel that is a good excuse for the offenders, I also don’t feel it has bearing at all on the victim. She did not do anything to deserve the beating. period. So please lets wait until the trail.

  I also to much emphasis being put on did the boy get a puncture wound. If you “stab” at someone with a pen, you are wrong. But, that is a difference case and does show a tendancy towards violence.

• gompertz
  Oct 31, 2008 at 2:01 am

  Amy, never did I or anyone else say the charges were not serious. I introduced the incident with the pen only to focus on the issue of how the media reported it. All the reports I saw on TV simply said, “She stabbed him with a pen.” None of them added “…but it did not puncture the skin.” That would have been more faithful to the actual statement in the affidavit,but it would have been much less sensational. Since few people will bother to read the affidavit, most will be left with the bare statement, “She stabbed him with a pen.” Now, in the absence of any more specific information, people will fill in the details themselves, relying on their own experience of what a stabbing means. Since most have never witnessed a person actually being stabbed, they could fall back on movie references. I think it was “Point of No Return”, in which the Bridget Fonda character stabs a man with a pencil, piercing his hand all the way through. Love those special effects! So people will identify Mercades with the crazed violent character in the movie. And why wouldn’t they let their imaginations run wild, when the media encourage it by manipulation of the facts? Remember this process of manipulation is subtle. I think you saw the video for which Greg provided the link, where the BF was speaking about his problems with Mercades? His account of her violent behavior was reinforced by the brief statement by a neighbor who intimated with due gravity that she is indeed a very bad girl. So there you have it: confirmation of what the BF said. Q.E.D. But isn’t that like buying several copies of the same daily newspaper, and seeing that they agree word for word, conclude that what they say must be correct? That would be silly, right? Yet people fall for it every day, and the media succeed in swaying public opinion by planting suggestions that are reinforced by more suggestions. The BF said nothing about his own wrongdoing, and the neighbor gave no evidence for her judgment. Yet the story had an aura of authoritative reporting that seemed convincing. Now let me repeat what I asked about Mercades threat have a group of boys beat up the BF. By what means was this threatto be carried out? Do we know that such a group existed? Did school authorities check to see whether any menacing-looking tough guys were congregating outside? Of course any threat of violence needs to be investigated. I haven’t seen the results of such an investigation. Maybe there wasn’t any, maybe there was. But the media know how to misrepresent the truth by what they don’t say as well as by what they say. In the absence of complete evidence I can only ask myself what is the most likely explanation. Take the allegations of threats that Victoria made to beat up the other girls. How much of a threat did she pose to them? They were bigger and outnumbered her. So I really don’t think they were defending themselves against her when they attacked her. I guess it was what they call a “preemptive strike.” It’s why I never believed that Iraq posed a threat to the U.S. A fourth-rate power, run by a tin-horn dictator who couldn’t control his own capital city, and he is supposedly more dangerous than Hitler? Yet people fell for it, the WMD’s and the mushroom clouds. Do you think media manipulation helped fuel the public acceptance of the pretext for war? I believe it. As for Mercades, no one ever said she is blameless. NO ONE. Amy, I know you hope for a fair trial and a fair outcome, with appropriate punishments, no more no less. So do I. However, I find the latest reports from Polk County very disturbing. It looks like these two juggernauts, the prosecutors and the defense team, are heading for a great confrontation which will destroy Victoria as well as the accused. Let’s pray it doesn’t come to that.

• GregS
  Oct 31, 2008 at 7:00 am

  Third, it is amazing that people want any of the girls, and Mercades in particular, to go to PRISON. In Florida, ADULTS nearly NEVER go to prison for MISDEMEANOR battery, and rarely go to JAIL.

  Thanks for reminding me that I can corner you in a room with a bunch of my friends and beat you up for 30 minutes and get away with it. Amazing that I can do that and it’s just a misdemeanor.

  The girls who beat Victoria up have to go to prison, period, and theres nothing you can say to change my mind on that. They showed no empathy and no remorse, they beat her down thug style, and they have to go to prison. And if you think otherwise then perhaps you wouldn’t mind being locked in a room with a bunch of guys while they take turns beating you up. In my opinion we have to send a message or next time it will be worse, people are watching the result of this case, some of the people waiting for the results are bullies and thugs and they want to see if they can continue to bully people and get slapped on the wrist. This is like the Enron of bullying trials, and while Mercades is not the main character and I’m willing to let her off the hook, Hardcastle is a pure thug, we saw her on the video acting like a thug and people like that truly belong in prison. Unless you want wait until the streets brings the consequences to her, it’s best that the law makes her pay the consequences, because her behavior will get her killed on the streets.

  And yet so many people want these CHILDREN — even those who merely failed to STOP the beating — to end up in PRISON.

  Thats bullshit, they aren’t children. Maybe the 14 year old is a child but these are mostly 17-18 year olds, they are adults. I wasn’t going around physically locking people in rooms and beating them up at 17-18. And if I were to do that to you, I’d go to prison. Let’s be real here, only the behavior matters not the numbers associated with the behavior. I want to correct the behavior and while prison might not be the answer for every one of these girls, for the girls who were beating Victoria up, prison is the answer for them. Why?

  1. They showed no empathy, remorse or compassion for the victim and exhibit predatory behavior. All violent predators belong in prison.

  2. They have previous criminal records. This is not their first offense, and if these were boys who beat up a homeless man and just happened to be 17, I’d demand they go to prison for the same reason.

  People who use the excuse that they are kids are letting their emotions influence their judgements, and their judgements are compromised. Predatory behavior must be corrected, and if we don’t correct it while they are young they’ll just become more efficient predators as they get older. And a lot of predators are watching them, men and women, who want to see if these “kids” will get away with it so they can go and do the same thing.

  Listen carefully, if we let them get away with this, if you treat violent criminals as “kids”, the violent “kids” watching this will see you as a weak sucker, someone who thinks with their emotions, someone they can take advantage of and walk all over, and they’ll also see that because of suckers like you they’ll be able to start locking people in rooms and beating them up in mass, it will become a trend. In a year we will be looking at this site and Youtube and we will see hundreds of cases and hundreds of new victims like Victoria, and these hundreds will become thousands if we let those hundreds get away with it too, it’s like an epidemic, do you understand? It’s like a mind virus, it will spread and if you don’t put a stop to it now then you’ll be enabling the spread.

• GregS
  Oct 31, 2008 at 7:19 am

  Amyv I saw the same video you saw, and Hardcastle’s behavior is just plain scary.

  I think her behavior shows that she belongs in prison. I think if none of these girls go to prison then this will create incentive for the other Hardacastles of the world to do the same thing.

  And what if the others do a much better job or make an even more disturbing video?

• GregS
  Oct 31, 2008 at 7:29 am

  Truth, we know Victoria is no angel. It doesn’t change the fact that she is the victim of a violent crime. Sure Victoria might lie, she might be a con artist, but there are different degrees and categories of criminal and she’s a non violent type.

  Victoria cannot be compared to Hardcastle. When you watch the video, the force behind Hardcastles punches, you’d think she was an amateur boxer, it’s understandable why all the other girls in the room feared her. If someone hits that hard, it’s understandable why you wouldn’t speak up.

• gompertz
  Oct 31, 2008 at 9:37 am

  Greg, I agree with everything you said. Only have a few minutes this morning. Good to see different viewed presented ion a civilized manner. The video does speak for itself, enough said. The things we do know call for severe punishment for some of them. I’ve often speculated on the things we don’t know for sure, such as whether someone like BH is incorrigibly evil or whether she can be rehabilitated. We don’t want to be swayed by emotion in being too lenient but emotion can also make us err in the other direction, in denying even the possibility of correction. The video evidence, as well as the subsequent absence of any sign of remorse are not promising, and only time will tell. One would hope that clearer insights into the character of these people, their motives and the true extent of their depravity would emerge in the trial. But that won’t happen if the defense team makes good its threat to attack Victoria unmercifully and the court allows it. (Why would they do that? Desperation or diabolical cleverness? Who knows?) Now, from the short video clips of judge Spoto he seems to be a solid jurist, objective and thoughtful. Let’s hope that’s true. I’m sick of those posturing, made-for-TV celebrity judges that pollute the airwaves. What would this calm objective judge look for? Signs of remorse would indicate that there is hope for rehabilitation, obviously. But if the attorneys really go after Victoria and renew her agony, the rational observer would have to ask, not only “are theyr sorry for what they did to her that day” but also “are they sorry for what their lawyers are doing to her today.” Any sign of enthusiasm, any clue that they might be enjoying watching their victim suffer again, should lead the rational judge to conclude that thir hatred for her is truly pathological, and thus they would pose an immanent threat to her safety at any time in the future. Of course that’s apart from any emotional revulsion that the court might feel. That would provide us with all we need to know about what an appropriate sentence should be.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 31, 2008 at 10:41 am

  She did not stab at him, she had a note that had been going in between them an arguement, in the midst of him grabbing one hand she tried to pull it off with the other in a quick manner and he got a pen mark on his hand. Look, I firmly believe Tori was a victim of a terrible violent crime, but NOBODY will ever convince me that Jake the Smake was a victim, he beat the sh*t out of her, and also for the record the woman in the video was his drunk grandma that today doesn’t even remember being on the news. Jake has thrown a cement block at my 7 year old when she was 5, in our yard I called the police but Mercades beggeed me to not press charges because his dad came and picked him up and promised he was taking him to seek help, I could go round and round about this kid, but like someone said lets wait until the trial, so you guys can see everything.

  ABOUT THE BOOK: I would never write a book about the poor victim, for her to have to relive the nightmare. I am however writing about our tragedy, and its my right. I start on the day that I recieved the phone about them arresting her, if that tells you anything. First and formost I will pay off my debt that I have enherited due to Grady Judd’s big mouth and lies. Then I will try and get Mercades back on track with the organization I was speaking of before. And yes, I was thinking about doing something for the victim, I have thought about that since the day I filed suit against the Sheriff. But not because people think that’s what I should do, I wish it hadn’t been brought up to be honest, but because its the right thing to do, I personally am not responsible for her getting beat up, the people who should be coughing up money for medical bills are the parents of the teens who hit her. But I felt a bond between her and I when we talked, I kind of saw myself in her…

  May I share a story with my fellow aquaintences on here? Back when I was a teen one night in that very same house a knock came upon the door, I had a friend spending the night..Michelle, I said who is it?? ( my father taught me to never open the door to a stranger) it was an ex boyfriend that I thought was still my friend, I opened the door, and he followed me into the kitchen where Michelle and I were sitting. He left the door open, I was like close the door. As soon as I said that, in came 3 big ass girls ones name was Rooster ( nick name) and my ex had been welding and could see but not real well ( any welders know what I’m talking about) the girls just began to jump me, the ex was laughing but at the same time complaining that he couldn’t see it too well. I called the police after they left, and honestly I wasn’t nearly tore up as Tori, but I was humiliated, when we went to court my friend was too scared to testify I lost the case, and then to top it off..?? The dam State Attorney asked me out on a dam date! I kid you not, I was only 14!!!! Polk County is so corrupted it makes my stomach turn.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 31, 2008 at 10:59 am

  Another thing, I want everyone on here to know that when and if I win my case against the SHeriff I will be smiling and maybe even have something to say to or about him, but my smile will never be against Tori, Never. And for the record my kid did have remorse, did you guys see her in court? Biting her lip?? That is from nervous stress, she wasn’t laughing. Nor was she laughing when she was detained. I can only speak for Mercades and Kayla ( which was crying so hard I thought she was going to have a nervous breakdown) these 2 had remorse.

• GregS.
  Oct 31, 2008 at 11:31 am

  If you want to see if a fighter has remorse, just look into their eyes. When Hardcastle is attacking Victoria, and Victoria is pleading with her to stop and let her leave, do you see any remorse, or empathy at all in her eyes?

  Now, I could be wrong, but Hardcastle hasn’t shown any remorse at all. Not during or after the fact. In the video she’s beating on a victim who isn’t defending herself for whatever reason, and basically has the victim in a corner crying, and is hitting the victim telling the victim to fight back.

  Sure it’s possible she could have some remorse but I haven’t seen any at all from her. If anyone can find a statement where she attempts to apologize or just admits to being wrong that would be a start, but she doesn’t seem to care recognize what shes done or the harm its caused the victim.

• GregS.
  Oct 31, 2008 at 11:49 am

  The evidence here is pretty damning against Hardcastle. It seems Hardcastle was the ringleader.

  “Lindsay tries to leave, but she’s confronted by Hardcastle near the front door, Murphy said. The beating continued in the living room.

  Hardcastle was trying to provoke others to hit Lindsay, Hassell said.”
  http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jun/25/videotaped-beating-suspect-says/

  Luckily for Tori, they weren’t all as ruthless as Hardcastle, otherwise it could have been much much worse. They didn’t all take Hardcastles orders, thats why the situation didn’t end up much worse. What if they all had the mentality of Hardcastle and were to take orders?

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 31, 2008 at 11:50 am

  Wow, if you think I was saying I thought BH has remorse, either you misunderstood or I wrote something wrong here…I was only speaking for Mercades oh and Kayla cause she was there too

• GregS.
  Oct 31, 2008 at 12:02 pm

  Christina no thats not what I thought you were saying. You are saying your daughter had remorse and is not the ring leader. In fact your daughter gave vague warnings to Tori.

  Kayla however claims that BH was the one giving orders, which means BH is was ring leader. Kayla also claims that BH was trying to get everyone to beat on the victim.

  I don’t know Mercades role, but nothing in the video or in the witness statements indicates she was the ring leader. I don’t know why everyone insists she was when she’s not giving any orders or doing any hitting.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 31, 2008 at 12:26 pm

  And not only Kayla, but Tori’s diary she wrote in the hospital said BH and then ringleader right beside it. This is why I am angry, the sheriff had this evidence but instead of taking the time to really investigate he shot his mouth off just to sensualize the public, and everybody will say Yeah Grady Judd is the greatest!

• Didacticus
  Oct 31, 2008 at 7:02 pm

  BTW, the TBO article is misleading: Kayla said in her deposition explicitly that she did NOT notice Brittini trying to provoke anyone into hitting Tori except Kayla herself.

  Journalists sometimes do not get things quite right, surprise surprise.

• Christina Garcia
  Oct 31, 2008 at 8:42 pm

  Did you listen to Kayla’s Deposition where the detective or whoever acually tried to trick Kayla into saying that Mercades was the one telling everyone to lie and get thier stories straight?? But he didn’t win, she was honest and said no, April!

• Didacticus
  Nov 1, 2008 at 2:52 am

  The prosecutor did NOT try to trick Kayla into anything; he was simply trying to follow what Kayla was saying. Not always easy, in part because Kayla herself occasionally mixed up the names of the girls (Tori included) and often expressed herself poorly or ambiguously.

  Although the prosecutor talked to Kayla like to a 6-year-old, the idea that he would try to “TRICK” her into saying (and repeating during the trial?!?) something blatantly incorrect is highly implausible.

  What the prosecutor did try is to LEAD Kayla into agreeing that the beating was happening with the IMPLICIT approval from Mercades. By LEADING I mean he asked Kayla several questions progressing toward that conclusion. This backfired badly for him, however, because, at the final step of his reasoning, Kayla immediately pointed out that Hardcastle is the type of a person who will do the OPPOSITE of what you tell her to do. In other words Mercades could not count on being able to control Hardcastle even when Hardactle was a guest in Mercades’s home.

  P.S. That is not to say that it excuses in any way the failure of Mercades to stop the beating — that was profoundly WRONG (although NOT criminal per Florida statutes) and the fact that she was home makes it even more so.

  It does, however, lend plausibility to Mercades being too much of a COWARD to directly confront Hardcastle. And note that Mercades was also evidently uneasy about confronting Tori alone and telling her she must leave — it was apparently Hardcastle who did so (and who sent the confrontational text message), only to have Mercades cave in after Tori’s ride intervened. Mercades probably felt PSYCHOLOGICALLY (rather than physically) intimidated by both Hardcastle and Tori — which is how she ended up unwittingly setting up a disaster.

  Again, this is NOT an excuse for her inaction, it just means that, together with other evidence, it is not only possible, but outright probable, that Mercades never wished for any kind of violence to take place at her home that night.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 1, 2008 at 9:45 am

  You and I are clearly listening to a different tape. The tape I listen to was clear kayla said April Called and he says ” and that was Mercades right?” Please if you think this wasn’t the agenda pinning Mercades’ face to everything you have been tricked. I know maybe for someone who doesn’t live here may not understand how a county can be corrupt, and if a person from here says its not, you can bet that person is part of the corruption. I also seen them leading the witnesses as well. And nobody here said Mercades was free from guilt, just because she didn’t hit her. I have said many times that she acted in a cowardly act, but I refuse to listen to people that think she should be hung or even be sentenced equally as the 2 that hit her. My daughter needs to stop being the poster child of this horrific event in the public. Your story about the car ride is so off that I will not even give an opinion. I don’t know how you break Mercades down so easily and then say ” this is NOT an excuse for her inaction, it just means that, together with other evidence, it is not only possible, but outright probable, that Mercades never wished for any kind of violence to take place at her home that night.” Like you were defending yourself for pleading her case or something…maybe I’m wrong but to me your comments were mostly anti-Mercades throw the book and sword at her.

• Didacticus
  Nov 1, 2008 at 12:35 pm

  Christina, you misread and misinterpreted what I wrote.

  My point is that trying to “trick” Kayla into substituting Mercades for April at that point would be silly and pointless.

  Kayla and Mercades already wrote nearly identical statements that said April and the other girls will lie. And Kayla was WITH Mercades when April called and it was Kayla WITH Mercades who decided not to lie for April.

  Under these circumstances, trying to “trick” Kayla into saying Mercades instead of April would be about as stupid and useless as trying to trick her into saying the Earth is flat.

  Depositions are conversations; and as in all conversations, there are misunderstandings — it’s that simple.

  You treat the prosecutor the way the media and people treat the parents of the accused teens — everything they say or do is taken out of context and given the most evil interpretation possible, no matter how implausible or downright silly.

  It would be more beneficial for you to pay closer attention to what the prosecutor clearly DID try to do. He applied a sophisticated technique of LEADING a kid — a 16-year-old girl facing life in prison and death threats, scared and eager to please the prosecutor — to agree with him that Mercades was implicitly approving the beating by failing to speak up against it.

  Now *that* bordered on sinister and had Kayla succumbed to the technique and said something she did not truly believe, it would have done a lot of damage because, unlike easily disproved factual information (who called whom), this is the realm of beliefs.

  If the prosecutor could induce some of the girls to say they felt Mercades approved the beating by being the host and yet not saying anything against it, he would have a chance to convict Mercades in court for abetting the beating.

  Thanks to Kayla, that line of attack against Mercades is now unlikely, but it is not entirely off the horizon.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 1, 2008 at 2:07 pm

  Oh, my attention is right where in needs to be, you can believe that. you say it would be stupid and silly, and my point is this they are stupid and being ran by a very ignorant and dangerous man. Vince has been put in a very uncomfortable sitaution thanks to the Sheriff…they have no evidence against Mercades for what she is charged with but yet he can’t just drop the charges because the public would be outraged after what Grady had brain washed them into thinking. I honestly feel bad for Vince and the position he is in. Mercades and I stick to the fact that she must be sentenced in some way for her part in the sitaution, as her mom I agree she needs something, but my reasons are much different than yours, but the outcome will be the same. As far as Kayla, I am so proud of her for not being tricked into saying Mercades, because it just wasn’t true. The sheriff stated Mercades called the victim, but yet the victim’s statement clearly says she called Mercades, and Mercades said she couldn’t talk then when she called back BH answered her phone, and then the txts started. I don’t want to move into anymore negative talk. I am pro Tori, I only want the truth to come out, and its very hard for a 16 year beating victim to stand tall and go against a BIG man like Grady Judd to tell the truth.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 1, 2008 at 2:17 pm

  And PS…if harm is brought upon myself or my family no that he and I are at very negative odds. There have so many death cover ups here and false imprisonment for standing someone’s ground its not even funny! This group is so strong, please keep us in your prayers, I acually might have to move. I acually have nightmares about Judd coming in the house while I’m bathng ( thats when I’m most vonurable not seeing the doors) and him saying his famous line ” Quite frankly…and then I’m here to kill you” I mean I am a strong woman, but just think about this, if an angered Sheriff came to your house to hurt you, who the heck would you call??

• GregS
  Nov 1, 2008 at 2:22 pm

  why are they protecting Hardcastle?

• GregS.
  Nov 1, 2008 at 2:34 pm

  Christina, Mercades agrees that what she did was wrong and wants to accept a sentence????

  And about the death threats, that stuff is wrong. I don’t even wish death upon the girls who physically beat Victoria, afterall they didn’t kill her so the people threatening to kill them are just plain wrong.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 1, 2008 at 2:50 pm

  Mercades has never said ” Hey, I should be set free, and not get a thing” I angers me that she is not allowed to make a statment when The Sheriff doesn’t know how to shut his pie hole” She is very disturbed thinking what if I would’ve just tried to get up and get in the middle, what I am fighting for is the fact that she should have never had the charges she has..Deputy Torez told her and Kayla to fill out the afdavits and they were merely witnesses to the crime. Thats when the Sheriff stepped in and everything went to hell in a hand basket.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 1, 2008 at 2:51 pm

  Everytime I read ” I didn’t know you could be sued for the truth” it saddens me, you have no idea what a web of lies he weaves….

• gompertz
  Nov 1, 2008 at 3:11 pm

  Everywhere you look when you google this case you see untruth passing for truth. TBO ran a story about the lawsuit on July 21 with a picture of Mercades and her mom. Most of the comments were disgusting, and a common theme was, “What, she beat up the victim and now she’s suing?” No one corrected that misconception and now it’s out there having gained a life of its own. That’s why it’s so important to keep up these discussions. Truth is stronger than lies and will win in the end if you keep fighting for it. As I read over the comments I found something even more disturbing by far than how hateful they were. A few drew attention to something in the photo: “The guy in the background is checking out the teenager.” and “He is trying to burn a hole in the 17-year-olds jeans..” I don’t know who that man in the picture is, but it reminded me of the kind of threat that awaits girls, and also boys, when they are put behind bars.

• Didacticus
  Nov 1, 2008 at 3:17 pm

  Regarding the reply by GregS to my post:

  You (and others) clearly implied that the 14-year-old April must be sent to ADULT PRISON.

  I explained that horrendous abuse and extreme dangers are inevitable for children in such places.

  If that means nothing to you, then indeed nothing I can say could change your mind.

  Children in Florida’s adult jails and prisons face inevitable physical, sexual, psychological and mental abuse. They have suffered grievous injuries, they have been raped and murdered. The chances of this happening inevitably sky-rocket when children are sent to adult jails and prisons and treated like adults, not kids.

  If all the abuse and dangers mean nothing to you, there is nothing more we can say to each other.

  To me, there is no imaginable justification for exposing children to such terrible abuse and extreme dangers.

  Inmates (and guards) who like to physically abuse and sexually exploit children LOVE judges and prosecutors who send children to adult jails and prisons — it makes the stay of these predators much more pleasant.

  Saying that society has to make an example of the 14-year-old April does NOT justify endangering her so profoundly.

  Again, we seem to have a fundamental disagreement. There is NO excuse for abetting child abuse, NO excuse for abetting child rape. NONE.

• GregS
  Nov 1, 2008 at 4:13 pm

  Lots of teenagers who commit violent offense end up in adult prison. If a group of teenagers commit armed robbery they usually end up in adult prison. If a group of teenagers sell marijuana or crack they end up in adult prison.

  When they get to adult prison they don’t put them in the general population of the prison, they put them in a segregated population of the prison. I know because I know some teenagers who went to adult prison and thats how it is. April and Hardcastle are violent criminals and the tape speaks for itself, both of them belong in adult prison, period, and there is no way to change my mind.

  Somebody has to be punished and go to prison, it simply must be done, because violent people belong behind bars.

• GregS
  Nov 1, 2008 at 4:28 pm

  Didacticus “Saying that society has to make an example of the 14-year-old April does NOT justify endangering her so profoundly. Again, we seem to have a fundamental disagreement. There is NO excuse for abetting child abuse, NO excuse for abetting child rape. NONE.”

  Stop being a sap. I’m showing Hardcastle and April as much empathy and compassion as they showed their victim. You are acting like these girls are personally related to you, like these girls are the victim. What about Tori?

  Since you’ve posted here, you’ve been attacking Victoria and defending all the suspects. You want to let the suspects get away with it so you can fee better, regardless of the consequences it could have on society.
  I said all along, I’m not emotionally attached to any of these girls, I want what is best for society, and it’s clearly best for society that we crack down harshly on this sort of violence, there is no place for it in our society, and frankly it’s people like you who are promoting bullying and violence by acting as the enabler.

  When you let the bully get away with it, it promotes bullying, and bullying leads to extreme violence like school shootings, thats why the situation is as bad as it is. The main reason these girls have to go to prison is for their own safety, they’d be safer in prison than on the streets. They are already receiving death threats, and if they just get a slap on the wrist do you think society is collectiely going tojust forget about this?

  It will encourage more people to do what they did, and it will also encourage people to take the law in their own hands. Justice has to work in this case.

• GregS
  Nov 1, 2008 at 5:03 pm

  I’m sorry if I was a bit rude Didacticus, but appeals to compassion just isn’t going to work on me. I’m not the one.

  I believe in right and wrong.
  I believe in reward and punishment.
  I believe in reason, not emotion.

  It’s clear that the logical punishment must be prison time.
  It’s not about how you, or I, or society feels.
  It’s about justice, and behavior modification.

  The only way to modify violent behavior is by dishing out consistent punishment to those who adopt incorrect behavior. No exceptions for any emotional reason. What is right is what ends the behavior we are trying to end, and putting these two girls in adult prison will gurantee that there will never be another Victoria, it will guarantee that this never happens again by giving other thugs who are watching this a strong deterrent which will say that sociey is no longer going to accept violence of this sort.

  You want to put an end to violence? stop blaming guns, stop blaming violent video games, stop blaming violent movies, blame the behavior itself and punish the behavior.

• Didacticus
  Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 pm

  In Florida, children have often been kept with the general inmate population in adult jails and prisons. And for at least a decade, they have been getting maimed, raped, and murdered.

  You say I’m being a sap for caring if 14-year-old April gets abused or raped in prison, and you imply she does not deserve such consideration because of what she did to the victim.

  The beating that April is seen delivering on the video is no worse than hundreds of beatings delivered every day by kids. It pales in comparison to what Hardcastle is seen doing and that in turn is still only a MISDEMEANOR battery and pales in comparison to hundreds of beatings every year committed by kids.

  April was not trying to maim or murder Tori, or even to injure her; in fact April clearly pulled most of her punches and they were far less forceful and dangerous than they could have been (and if you disagree you evidently know NOTHING about that kind of violence, just as you evidently know NOTHING about abuse of children in Florida’s jails and prisons).

  To imply that, as a consequence of her offense, the 14-year-old April somehow deserves no concern about getting maimed or raped is to reveal a total lack of proportion and humanity.

• Didacticus
  Nov 1, 2008 at 9:53 pm

  Greg, you need not worry about being rude, and I will ignore your ad hoc attacks. What I can NOT ignore is when you make up blatantly false accusations.

  I have NOT been attacking the victim here. In fact in my 2nd posting here I pleaded with Christina not to conclude that Tori was dishonest in her reports of the beating and instead give her the benefit of doubt.

  And I NEVER said or indicated in any way that I’m against punishing April (not to mention Hardcastle) or any other girl who in any way participated in the battery.

  If you keep on making up such false accusations, I may have to just give up on posting here because it gets to be a bloody waste of time having to explain that no I did not say this and not I do not think that.

• Amyv
  Nov 1, 2008 at 11:29 pm

  Christina - I agree with you on two facts. One - I don’t believe Mercades was the ring leader. Two - I do not believe any of these girls should get death threats.

  However, I find you statement about false imprisonment a little confusing. Are you talking about Mercades? The false imprisonment I saw was on the tape and that was against Victoria.
  Also, with all of the horrible things you experienced in Polk county, why would you want to raise your children their? I would have gotten out.

  I do believe all of the girls should have been charged with false imprisonment. Victoria was trying to leave that house she was blocked at the bedrooom door and the front door was locked and she was not permitted to leave. Although, Brittini Hardcastle was blocking the door, all girls their were accessories to this fact.
  She was held against her will. Unfortunately, for your daughter (or perhaps more for your mother) this took place at her home. So they are all to be held accountable for this.

  Also, Viictoria stated that she told Brittini Hardcastle she did not want a ride and Brittini forced her into the car. Correct if I am wrong but was it not your daughter who was driving the car. Hence the kidnapping charge.

  It seems like your daughter and Brittini were good friends before this incident since it is stated Brittini delivered the valentines gift to the ex-boyfriend for Mercades. If Mercades was scared of her why was she hanging around her?
  Also, the statement “don’t hit the shelf” does not show sympathy for Victoria or fear of Brittini. That was your daughter’s voice was it not?

  Once again the trial for the charges with the ex-boyfriend will shed more light on that situation. However, he is the one that found it necessary to go to school officials because of threats made by Mercades. It does not matter if she actually did have the gang of boys set up to beat him, she made the threat. Correct me if I am wrong.
  And, if the pen did slip, your daughter just seems to have people out to get her all over the place.

  As for Kayla she did hit Victoria. If you listen to her statement to the prosecutor side by side with the tape her statements do not add up. She got right in the middle of Victoria and screamed and yelled at her in between Brittini hitting her. Very angry at Victoria. Seemed to be a big issue with her over a boy. She showed absolutely no fear of Brittini at all. But, she sure was screaming and cussing up a storm right in Victorias face. I believe this was towards the end of the tape after they have taken turns beating Victoria. So her sweet, innocent, little girl act now does not match up at all with the bully we saw on the tape. And the tape doesn’t lie. Sorry you can’t blame the tape on that.

  Yes, your daughter and Kayla said they would not lie to the police. Since they knew it was on tape, what would have been the point.

  We all agree Brittini Hardcastle was the most violent of all the girls. However, why do we analyze the way April was hitting Victoria. She hit her several times and on more than one occassion. So I do believe she was intending to harm her. Maybe she just doesn’t throw a punch as well as B.H. Even though April is only 14 she also showed a tremendous amount of violence.

  I will state again this girls do not deserve life in prison, nor do they deserve death threats. But, they do deserve harsh punishment. They were all there. Victoria was not able to leave. She was beaten. Bottom line. Lets quit with blaming the world instead of the girls who commited the crime.

  I don’t care that you totally disagree with me. You don’t deserve to make any money off a book and frankly I can’t see many people buying when you are trying to portray yourself as a victim. Especially, since the only one that has moved out of town is the victim.

  Get over yourself. Stop justifying certain aspects of your daughters behavior. Everyone can not be lying. Your daughter has seem real emotional problems? Get mad if you want but, is she living with you now?

• GregS.01
  Nov 1, 2008 at 11:45 pm

  Didacticus

  A. If she was a boy you wouldn’t care. Many boys are in adult prison for non violent offenses like selling drugs, and I don’t see you protesting against the war on drugs. If rape is going on in prisons, protest that, but it has nothing to do with this case and you are only bringing it up in hope of winning sympathy for the poor violent criminal. I’m sorry but I don’t have any sympathy, and even if somehow I did, if that girl does not change her behavior she’s going to be killed on the streets of florida and probably wont live to see age 20. It’s her mentality, it’s her lifestyle, it’s her behavior, and it doesn’t matter where she is, in prison or released into the real world, if her behavior does not change them eventually someones going to change it through violence.

  How many more school shootings do you want? How many kids have to die? Have you looked at the end result of allowing kis to beat on each other like that? It CREATES gang violence. It starts with some girl like that beating up people like Victoria, then they beat up the person who decides to go get a gun and use it, and you end up with dead teenagers. And your response is to ban the guns, ban the video games, ban the movies, blame the music, blame myspace, blame youtube, but none of that is going to work because like I said before, bullying conditions non violent individuals to become violent individuals. It’s not the video games, it’s not the music that teaches kids to carry guns around and shoot people, it’s being trapped in a room and jumped and having it uploaded to youtube, thats what causes kids to carry weapons and guns around, thats what causes an individual to become deadly. But I guess you don’t see the cause and effect here.

  April was not trying to maim or murder Tori, or even to injure her; in fact April clearly pulled most of her punches and they were far less forceful and dangerous than they could have been (and if you disagree you evidently know NOTHING about that kind of violence, just as you evidently know NOTHING about abuse of children in Florida’s jails and prisons).

  Are you kidding? Did we see the same video? Isn’t April the one who starts beating Tori while the girl in the backround is yelling elmer? That hit was so hard I could hear the impact on camera, and you say she wasnt punching with all her might? It looked to me like both April and Hardcastle were hitting Tori with all their might. I did not see any holding back in the video, I don’t know if you watched the full video.

  And just because they didn’t kill or maim Tori it does not excuse what they did. You think Tori is the only girl they did this too? You think this kind of abuse has no impact on people psychologically? The abused Tori, then they uploaded it to YouTube, yet you are more concerned about protecting them from being abused in prison? So you’d rather let them continue to get away with abusing people outside of the prison? Tori will never be the same after this, I hope we can both agree on that, and because of that they need to face the consequences.

  To imply that, as a consequence of her offense, the 14-year-old April somehow deserves no concern about getting maimed or raped is to reveal a total lack of proportion and humanity.

  B. You show absolutely no concern for the victim who is being abused in the video for the entire world to see. You are so busy trying to protect the abusers from being abused that you don’t care if justice is served or not. It’s completely up to you if you want to post here or not, it’s also completely up to you if you want to take the focus your concern on the welfare of the victim or the abuser, or both. But you seem to be focused on minimizing what April and Hardcastle did on tape, to protect these girls from what COULD or MIGHT happen to them in prison. And through all of this you don’t seem to be concerned at what might happen to these girls OUTSIDE of prison if their behavior does not change. Do you really think that people in their community are going to let them continue bullying people and beating them up like that?

  If you are worried about whos going to protect them in prison, why aren’t you worried about whos going to protect them outside of the prison? If they get let off with no prison time, they are going to have to change their names and go into hiding. Not only that but it’s going to inspire others to do even worse stuff on camera because they’ll think that it’s just going to be a slap on the wrist, I don’t know if you have a son or daughter but do you want your son or daughter to be the next one beat up and uploaded to youtube? Thats what is at stake here.

• GregS
  Nov 2, 2008 at 12:09 am

  Amyv I’m sure Christina wants to get out of Polk County but I don’t think she can be blamed for growing up and raising kids in a bad neighborhood.

  I think in general, a lot of people just don’t understand whats at state in this case. This isn’t ordinary bullying, this is bullying 2.0, it’s to the point now where it’s so bad that it will psychologically destroy people. It’s one thing to beat a person up and the person can grow up, it’s not like it’s on tape and watched by the internet forever.

  Victoria is going to have to live with the fact that she was beat up on tape. The people who get abused in prison or in other environments are not abused on tape and it’s not uploaded to the internet.Society has to put a stop to this before people start killing each other over this. Thats the point I’m trying to make.

• Didacticus
  Nov 2, 2008 at 1:18 am

  Greg, you keep on making up blatantly FALSE ACCUSATIONS.

  Saying “If she was a boy you wouldn’t care” is YOUR FANTASY and happens to be UNTRUE.

  Saying “And your response is to ban the guns, ban the video games, ban the movies, blame the music, blame myspace, blame youtube” is YOUR FANTASY and happens to be UNTRUE.

  Saying “So you’d rather let them continue to get away with abusing people outside of the prison?” is YOUR FANTASY and happens to be UNTRUE.

  Saying “you don’t care if justice is served or not” is YOUR FANTASY and happens to be UNTRUE.

  And so on, there are other FANTASIES in your post that have nothing to do with reality. You created an IMAGINARY OPPONENT. I do not see any point in arguing with FANTASIES.

  And given that you pretty much state that you do not care if the 14-year-old April gets maimed or raped, I do not want to communicate with you anyway.

• gompertz
  Nov 2, 2008 at 2:27 am

  I’d like to interject a few brief remarks of my own. I certainly agree that emotion could lead us astray here. For instance, if a judge showed excessive leniency because he is moved by images of parents sobbing uncontrollably while their children are dragged away in chains, then he would be guilty of sentimentality. On the other hand, couldn’t emotion make us err in the other direction? This very high-profile case causes such visceral reactions, that a substantial percentage of the population have called for life imprisonment or even the death penalty. I think that would be excessive by far. Now, it may be suggested that society would be better served to err on the side of excessive severity rather than the opposite, perhaps following the Machiavellian dictum that it is better for a ruler to be feared than loved. But such abstract notions miss the point that the call for brutal punishment arises from emotions that are as dangerous as the sentimentality that leads to leniency. Both extremes are a sign of weakness. Yielding to calls for excessively harsh punishment is surrender to mob rule, and detrimental to society because it too comes from emotion and not reason. So what do I think a reasonable sentence might be for someone like BH? How does seven years sound? Or maybe ten years with possibility of parole after five, if the judge thinks she could be rehabilitated. I’m just guessing, because I don’t know what the standards are, and I really hope there are standards in place. I believe a rational approach to punishment would demand that there is some uniformity of standards in sentencing. One problem is that there does not seem to be any predictability in how particular crimes are punished. Sometimes an act of violence leads to harsh punishment, sometimes a similar act leads to probation. Why the disparities? Sometimes it seems you could dispense with judge and jury and roll the dice. Now, if we can agree that someone convicted of a crime must face a punishment that is at least somewhat uniform, predictable and fair, then can we agree that once the sentence has been pronounced, the prisoner should have the expectation that the sentence will be carried out within the limits of the established guidelines? In other words, you go to prison, you pay for your crimes by being deprived of your liberty, and possibly suffer certain other inconveniences like being forced to work on a chain gang. But I do not believe the goals of society are served by subjecting prisoners to the additional punishment of being beaten and raped. Whether that is more common in Florida than elsewhere, I can’t say, it should not happen. It brutalizes those who endure it and those who inflict it. We know that prison rape is a fact of life, and some (Gore Vidal comes to mind) suggest that this sordid act is used by prison authorities as a form of additional punishment for prisoners they don’t like. I wonder, maybe we could say that because prison rape is so widespread, and because prisoners can expect it, it has been made reasonable by its predictability. Somewhere in that reasoning there must be a flaw but I’m much too tired to find it. So let me conclude for tonight by making an observation on the subject of showing concern for the victim. Those who know Victoria personally, family and friends, can express their concern for her in ways that are not open to those for whom she remains an abstraction. If I were wealthy I might offer to provide financial assistance. Some have made small donations which I’m sure do little to ease the tremendous financial burden the family bears. Some have sent letters and e-mails offering advice and encouragement. Other than there isn’t anything well-intentioned strangers can do, is there? When you spoke before about concern for the victim, I interpreted that to mean advocating appropriate punishment for her attackers. I’m not disagreeing, just wondering if that’s what you meant.

• gompertz
  Nov 2, 2008 at 2:31 am

  BTW just noticed another post by Didacticus above mine, which wasn’t there when I started writing. I don’t think anything in his post would alter anything I said in mine, just for the record.

• GregS
  Nov 2, 2008 at 6:13 am

  gompertz I’m not one of the people who thinks any of these girls should get life in prison or the death penalty.

  I just don’t think they should be getting probation, or community service, or some light sentence just because of sympathy. Whatever the punishment is for the crime, they should receive it. No exceptions.

  I’ve never advocated that I want them to be raped in prison, or outside of prison, but to not give them a fair and harsh sentence because of what could happen to them in prison, this could apply to all sorts of criminals if we were to decide on sentencing in this way.

• gompertz
  Nov 2, 2008 at 12:43 pm

  Greg, since I do read your posts, and all the posts, carefully, I’m well aware that you did not advocate any of these things. Still, one finds it necessary to occasionally issue disclaimers. There are people who accuse me of turning my back on the victim because I have come to the conclusion that some, at least, of the accused have been treated unfairly by the Sheriff and the media. To me that does not seem to be logical. As for the statistics on treatment of juveniles in Florida that deals with questions of fact for which I can give no information. I have read some posts on the Lakeland wire that offer as evidence some truly appalling cases of mistreatment of children in Florida prisons. Most of us do not have time to do the kind of exhaustive investigation that would show that this is prevalent, or the kind of tragic anomaly that calls for intervention by the authorities. Both Amy and I have repeatedly invited someone, anyone to point out authoritative sources, in the form of websites or books, that could confirm these claims. I do think that people behind bars are more vulnerable to mistreatment, in Florida or elsewhere. It’s just the degree of danger that is the question.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 2, 2008 at 1:31 pm

  ok…where do I begin? I am so stressed out about some of the things said, that it would be so much easier for me to walk away and save my energy for other things as I cough over my keyboard…

  Didacticus and others that keep bringing Mercades’ name up in your arguements about April and Brittany..please stop. Niether one of them are my kids and quite frankly if they were I’d probably not be going by my name on here either.Just please, if you want to ask me something about Mercades or bash her more, then I will reply even when it hurts me. Thank you

  To Amyv:

  hmm..I have way too much to say to you, but I won’t waste too much time, because it seems to me maybe you’re either a mad mother of one of the 2 that hit her, or on the State’s team and want to try and dig up garbage here, but there is none. You’ve heard it all ok?
  Just for the record I grew up in a very nice nieghborhood, those who are interested I lived at 1211 Brighton Way Lakleand Fl..my father was a builder here well known. Don Nichols you want more check his name for properties in Polk County or better yet his business Donic Inc. I mean hey if digging up my dead father’s name can prove to everyone that we are not and were not scum then go for it ok? But where I did grow up and raise my kids is in a Hillbilly redneck town called Polk County! I want to move, but do you not see my position right now? How am I going to move Kalina and I and just leave Mercades? I couldn’t move before the situation because it takes alot of money and balls to start all over, yeah I know I know ( you’re going to say I do have them right?) well, my mom is here and my dad was here I had to take care of him and his business then pay off the vulchers that were suppose to be family, pay capital gain, and I ended up with a home on an acre ( which I never thought I’d live in) I hate the country, I am a city girl.
  Now, about Mercades and your opinion on her charge of false imprisonment, she told Tori not to go in the house 3 times, ( before anyone attacks me I am not saying this is an excuse for her to sit back ok?) then did you happen to hear the voice that said just let her run away? Uh..yeah that was Mercades. Brittany and Mercades were not best friends either..when you were a teen you never had someone you called a friend you were scared of? You don’t know all the details about Jake the Snake and the fact that he handed Brittany a present for Mercades as well. I can unserstand so much the outcry for Victoria I mean went through alot, and I do want to help her in some way, back when I first thought about sueing the sheriff for what he had done to me and my family, I was daydreaming a llittle about how if I had enough money to move away from this hell hole, just give my house to her, I know its not much but she could’ve sold it and did what she wanted with it. Now, don’t mistake that comment for a promise, I mean I don’t know if or what I will get when we get to Federal Court. But that is whats in my heart, alot of times we want to do things that we just can’t do. But I do want to help, but I also need to think about my family as well. Afterall, her scars are not from Mercades, Mercades didn’t set her up like the lovely sheriff stated. And for the record Mercades didn’t have people all over the place out to get her…no ma’am Jake the Snake did not go to officials the teacher sent them both to the office for fighting ( him grabbing her arm as well) The official called me at home. The school principal was shocked Mercades’ name was even involved with such a tradgic story, when they had him on the news did you ever hear him say ” Oh yeah, that Mercades is trouble” nope! The only people the media could scoop up is Jake and his alcoholic mother.
  And I need to remind you Mercades turned the tape over if she and Kayla wanted to lie as you imply they didn’t have to turn the tape over to Dep. Torez!!! I know Kayla was a little upset on the tape, but she was probably part of what was said about her on myspace, its not illegal to yell at someone she didn’t hit her. PERIOD! Mercades nor Kayla stood in front of the door, the simply failed to help, do you happen to know the laws on this issue? If you are a lifeguard and see someone drowning and you do nothing you’re liable, if you are a civilian and do nothing although it is extremely immoral not to help it is not against the law. She had no legal responsibilty to jump in between them. With that said, I feel as a mother, her not jumping in was morally incorrect therefore she stands tall knowing she will be sentenced for her cowardness, but not for any violence.
  On the blame game you speak of, I don’t blame others…I speak from my heart and my emotions, as we all have seen this can be very bad, but most of the time it is a valued moral! People learn quickly they can believe what I say, I have said my daughter should get something for her inactions, if I was all about the blame game I wouldn’t have apoligized here for misplacing my anger from the Sheriff to Tori. I wish I could tell her myself but I can not speak to her.And I respect that. I hope she really opens up about the pressure I think the sheriff put on her on GMA tomorrow.
  About my book: How dare you tell me I am not a victim. You don’t know me, you don’t know about all the late night visits from the sheriff’s office nor how his lies have destroyed myself, my youngest daughter and my family! My book has nothing to do with the beating, only what the Sheriff and his pack of lies have done to me. You try having a deputy tell you in FRONT of your 6 year old ” oh your daughter is a suspect in the beating case so we can’t protect you with these death threats nor write a report..I simply have written a journal if I hadn’t gotten my words and feelings out on paper I may have gone crazy. Plus if anything happens to me, I want proof. So, I plan on sharing my journal that turned into a book with the world, if nobody buys it, then fine.But if they do, I will start an organization as I explained earlier in another post, pay off my expenses that the sheriff caused and send the Lindsay’s something toward thier medical bills, including any counsiling Tori might need, BUT not because I feel Mercades caused harm to her nor for guilt but because I feel from my heart terrible for her. Now, I have to go law down this has drained me. Please excuse any errors ahead of time, this was pretty long

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 2, 2008 at 1:35 pm

  if you want to see corruption gregs..you can go to polkcountycorruption.com there are many more. Thanks

• gompertz
  Nov 2, 2008 at 2:59 pm

  Christina, thanks for the link. Anyone discussing this case must see this.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 3, 2008 at 10:43 am

  Well, they must have cancelled her interview on GMA…I personally think its best for both sides.

• gompertz
  Nov 3, 2008 at 11:27 am

  Greg, on re-reading what I wrote yesterday I realize that my last reply to you was so ambiguous my meaning was unclear. So to clarify: I know that you did not approve of things like prison rape or anything like that, that is what I meant. Appropriately hard sentences for brutal crimes, we agree on that. In making your own case for sending some of these girls away you pointed out that juveniles are segregated and there is usually enough supervision to ensure their safety. Like you, I can attest that I know people who went into prison at an early age and did not suffer the more vile forms of abuse. Of course these people (two of whom were childhood friends of mine) emerged only to resume their antisocial activities, and one of them has spent most of his life on Riker’s Island, being released just long enough to commit new felonies and begin a new term. The problem is that once you have a record like that, getting a decent job is difficult if not impossible. So, the young felon is confined to low-paying menial jobs, and his girl friend is crying that he never buys her anything nice. It’s hard to afford a BMW and diamonds on a janitor’s wages, but the crime bosses offer you employment that is, if not respectable, financially rewarding. Understand that I am not weeping for this man. I am just pointing out that, while there seems to be sufficient control within the prison itself, there is no control outside of the prison. It’s just another example of rewarding bad behavior, and rewarding bad behavior is a prevalent characteristic of our society. There are people of good will who complain about the “purposelessness of warehousing prisoners” and believe greater leniency in sentencing will bring out the fundamental decency of criminals. I think that approach is part of the problem. The other alternative, increasing the harshness of sentencing and conducting mass executions, is another easy alternative that does not help. It brutalizes the people who apply it, and yields gratifications that lead to barbarism. So I think there needs to be balance and fairness in sentencing, but that’s the easy part. It mostly depends on judges and juries who simply followed established guidelines for sentencing. As for the question of what is to be done to overhaul society as a whole, that is the more difficult problem.

• gompertz
  Nov 3, 2008 at 11:30 am

  I thought they might cancel the interview, maybe they’ll do it after the election.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 3, 2008 at 11:54 am

  Don’t you think doing the interview could hurt either side?

• gompertz
  Nov 3, 2008 at 1:15 pm

  Christina, I think it all depends on what is discussed in the interview. If they stick to asking how Victoria feels, how she’s getting along, it should be pretty harmless. If they try to lead her into answering questions about specifics of the case, which should be answered at the trial, then it could hurt either side.

• GregS
  Nov 3, 2008 at 1:50 pm

  So, the young felon is confined to low-paying menial jobs, and his girl friend is crying that he never buys her anything nice.

  And I think that is a fair punishment for violent crime. That punishment is worse than prison. Although I don’t think that punishment will apply to the girls involved.

  It’s hard to afford a BMW and diamonds on a janitor’s wages, but the crime bosses offer you employment that is, if not respectable, financially rewarding.

  I don’t think drug dealers should be in that situation but if a guy is beating on his wife, or in situations of violence the consequences should be the most severe. I agree with you on the fundamentals that the punishment should fit the crime. In the case where the crime is violent and life changing, the punishment should be just as life changing.

  I’m not tough on all crime, I’m tough on violent crime. I’m not a supporter of the war on drugs, I don’t think we should ban them from going to college just because they sold some drugs. I think wife beating is worse than drug dealing. I think physically bullying people is worse than selling drugs to people, because while drugs can be addictive in some situations, the person at least wanted them and had the choice.

  I do have a concern that Mercades is being blacklisted even though she’s not violent. But I must admit, I don’t have any sympathy for April or Hardcastle who are clearly violent individuals who deserve whatever punishment they get.

• GregS
  Nov 3, 2008 at 1:57 pm

  These violent girls, even if they are blacklisted, they’ll be able to find a husband and probably will end up in a normal life. They might not be able to find a job, but if they can learn to not be violent, then they’ll at least be able to find a man and get married. I don’t predict that April or Hardcastle will be homeless victims.

  I do think they are blacklisted however, and I think they are blacklisted because millions of people know their names and face and see their violence on video tape. Would you hire either of them after seeing that tape?

  And anytime they go on a job interview, someone is going to send that url/tape to the potential employer.

• GregS
  Nov 3, 2008 at 2:15 pm

  gompertz another aspect is, I’m not a criminal, I’m not violent, yet I cannot afford a BMW, a rolex and will have financial problems.

  The difference is, I’ve gone to college. But I have to admit, crime pays better than going to college, especially right now while the economy is looking shitty. It shouldn’t be this way, where I can probably make more and faster money selling drugs than any other way.

  The problem with society is that theres not enough ways for good people to make fast money. The “bad” people have a near monopoly on fast money. They get to make fast money simply because they are willing to ignore the law.
  They sell drugs because they know it can bring fast money directly into their pockets.

  I think people who are college graduates, who work hard, are often exploited as suckers, by politicians constantly asking them to sacrifice more and more for less reward, to the military which exploits and spends peoples lives.

  What we need is incentive to be good. If an individual is violent I don’t think theres an easy fix to that besides keeping them in prison, but if an individual is non violent and simply breaks the law because they need to make money, I think they ought to be given alternatives to allow them to make the same kinda quick money without having to break the law. This is why I support decriminalization of marijuana at least, and it’s up for debate if we should decriminalize all drugs in general.

  If you are a good person and non violent, you should be able to get money easily, and get rich easily, it shouldn’t be this difficult. As for Mercades, I don’t know her personally, but her mother tells us she’s not a bad person. If thats the case then we can work with her, but once again even if she’s not a bad person, her options are still very limited.

  So solving the problems of society will be very difficult because most of the people within society don’t even recognize that there are problems. A lot of good people think that being good and being rich are the same thing, but they aren’t the same thing. A lot of rich people are truly bad people, but got rich by being the baddest. Very few rich people are good people, and among those who are good and rich, the vast majority of them had to do “bad” or “illegal” things to get that rich. Whether it meant being dishonest, or backstabbing people, they had to do whatever it takes.

  How do you think we can change society so that people can compete to see who is the most good rather than the most wicked? If society is a pyramid, how can we make it so the righteous rise to the top? Any ideas?

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 3, 2008 at 2:26 pm

  Gregs:

  When you say “even blacklisted”…are you concluding that Mercades is the same as the other 2 girls? If so, where are you coming from?

  Also, this just in The interview was taped in NY this morning but will not be shown until next Monday

• gompertz
  Nov 3, 2008 at 3:01 pm

  Greg, right now I just want to restrict myself to a few comments. “Would you hire either of them after seeing that tape?” Interesting question. I presume you were referring to BH and AC. Well, if I owned a factory for instance, and I were hiring for assembly line work or custodial duties, I might take the chance, but definitely I wouldn’t hire them to be security guards. It would all depend on reports from parole officers, recommendations from priests or ministers from those churches they attend regularly, things like that. As for seeing the tape, it fills me with revulsion. Still, I would try to be objective. Like most people, I am very much influenced by what is presented visually. We are greatly moved by scenes of graphic violence, even if it is only simulated, as in a movie. So I would set aside my feelings about that visual stimulus, that is, if it is a question of hiring. If it is a question of conviction or sentencing, that is another story. There, the tape is evidence, and it appears to be decisive.

• GregS
  Nov 3, 2008 at 3:20 pm

  Christina, I hope Mercades is not, but I’m not really in any position to know. But based on what I’ve seen in peoples comments after seeing the video, it appears like people have individually decided to take action. Someone on YouTube got your phone number and address and posted it up there, and gave people instructions to call you up and tell you how they feel. I think a lot of the threats are due to the fact that they put your information on the internet, violating your privacy.

  I have also seen comments from people claiming to be gangster types, talking about what they plan to do to these girls on the streets or in prison, when their people find them.

  It’s hard to really know if an individual is on a blacklist because they do that stuff in absolute secrecy. They vote on it in secret during their meetings, in some cases if just one really powerful individual is pissed off at you in a town, that is enough to get blacklisted. The powerful individual could be anyone, but that individual might be in a country club, fraternity, mafia, or a member of a church.

  Some of these groups have international/global chapters/sects/etc all over the place so if they blacklist a person it can reach across the globe. It’s the internet age now, so if someone gets blacklisted now, its probably global. They know what these girls look like, the beating is on video on YouTube.

  For example, the police have a fraternity. The firemen have a fraternity. And on top of this you have international fraternities like the Skull & Bones. You also have religions like Scientology.

  If someone is put on a blacklist or blackballed it means every member of the fraternity is told about them, told not to hire them, etc. And then you have the gangs, the mafias, that have their versions of blacklists where if someone is put on their list, all their members and associates are free to hurt the person. You mentioned that crimes are being committed against you, like identity theft and that people have been refusing to hire you, I’m hoping you and your daughter aren’t on some kinda blacklist but this is something only you and your daughter are in a position to know.

  I think your problem seems to be localized, I don’t hear people discussing you upstairs on the east coast, so if you are on some sorta blacklist it’s probably a Polk County thing. But if you want to know how bad it was, when Dr. Phil bailed out your daughter, what happened to him? Even Dr. Phil was intimidated and he’s rich. That didn’t stop people from threatening to boycott his show, even he has to deal with consequences.

  The international blacklist is really the worst thing you could possible be on, it’s the worst punishment that society can offer. They used to put communists on this list, it was so bad that people who are on it cannot get hired anywhere even when they move, it means when they do move people will spread rumors and lies about them, and it’s all sorts of people involved, plumbers, doctors, lawyers, gang members, police, the media.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 3, 2008 at 3:49 pm

  Well…it seems as though you have been on my youtube site being that you used the word ” mafia” among the others. And we both know who he is..you are right not wanting to get to involved because we are in a dangerous position. And you know I don’t want to become combative with this person and those people being that the case was violent within itself, but I will say this I felt the need that I had to buy a gun : ( I hate guns, I have also called a family member in Conn. that is organized ( The Bavelacos) I only wanted to prove my daughter’s side of things, but if he comes or any of his goons I am ready. I am so over this man thinking he is God.

• Amyv
  Nov 3, 2008 at 8:22 pm

  Christina - I most certainly am not the mother of one of these girls that hit Victoria. I would not be blogging on the internet, I would be hanging my head in shame.

  I am the mother of a 16 year old daughter. I have discussed this incident with her and many of her friends. These girls are not perfect angels and are not immune to the teenage violence that is going on throughout our country. However, even the toughest of these girls gives her opinion on this subject. She said they went way over the top. And she can not imagine ever doing anything so cruel.

  I also am not part of the “great conspiracy going on in polk county” against you. Of course we can all agree that the death threats against your family, daughter and especially your mother are totally unacceptable. These types of people further encourage violence. And, these threats should not be taken lightly.

  Yes, your daughter did warn Victoria not to go into the house. But, did she tell Victoria their were additional girls in the home? Or was it just because Brittini Hardcastle was so angry. Your daughter herself, according to witness was screaming at Victoria. So their were an awful lot of girls angry with the victim.

  You say you would donate money to Victoria, not because your daughter caused her any harm, but because of the violent acts against her. Your daughter did cause her harm. Emotional harm. Victoria stated on the tape “Mercades you are supposed to be my friend.” Betrayal by a friend can be just as hurtful physical violence. Sometimes even more so.

  Also, your daughter saying “Don’t hit the shelf’” is a very disturbing statement. She was brave enough with Brittini to say that. It showed more concern for knick knacks than the well being of her friend.

  I have repeatedly stated that none of these girls deserve life in prison. And, I think everyone on this post has enough sense to know that, that is not going to happen. I also state that your daughter was not what I would consider the ring leader. But, you yourself have agreed that Mercades deserves punishment for this crime. As for the other case with the ex-boyfriend, more information will be made available when that trial begins. i.e. any reports he may have filed at school, etc. You do not like criticism against yourself, but freely call his mother a drunk.

  I as a mother would love and stand beside my daughter if she were involved in an incident like this. That is what a mothers love is unconditional. However, I have told her, she would have to face the consequences of such violent actions. I have also told her that I would be beyond ashamed of her.

  As for writing the book, that is obviously your choice. In my opinion a bad one, but this is America. I would in no way want to call anymore attention to myself or especially my daughter.

  Also, rape and beatings in prison are unacceptable and country wide. This I blame on not enough proper supervision. Low funding for prisons. Stop paying for cable and hire more correction officers.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 4, 2008 at 2:37 pm

  Because we disagree on so much, I am going to choose not to reply to everything you said, and only because my post would be redundant for the fact of well one example…I have posted that my father’s ashes were in that shelf but you still claim it was over nick nack which shows you haven’t paid real attention to my posts, and you have made your mind up that Mercades is a villan and caused the harm to Tori, and there is nothing I can do to change your mind, the Sheriff has tainted your judgement along with alot of others. I am sorry if that upsets you, I really am not angry and I dm not trying to affend you in any way. As always thank you for your opinions.

• Amyv
  Nov 4, 2008 at 4:11 pm

  Christinia - The sheriff did not taint my opinion. The tape did. I am sorry for what this case has done to everyone.

  It is just sad all the way around. Teenagers now a days are growing up in a far to violent society.
  We a adults need to find ways to stop this violence.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 4, 2008 at 5:43 pm

  I don’t know how the video could taint you about my kid but ok…I really have no more strength to argue about this : *( my heart has really been affected by all the stress. I went to the doctor yesterday, he told me to stay away from stress lol, and then wanted to give me pills : ( I said no to the pills, and just smiled when he said no stress. Doctors are too funny sometimes. And do you know what we can do as adults?? Take our darn rights back from the state or government or whoever said we can’t spank our kids, yes I know probably many people on here don’t believe in it, but hey, we are living in a society that didn’t believe in spanking, and guess what guys?? Look at what we have in return? I love both of my children, but at times you have to be able to discipline them beyond the famous ” no, no” I don’t agree with voilence doesn’t fix violence crap either, because I don’t believe spanking in the correct way is violent. My father spanked my ass, I remember running around the house from him with the belt in his hand, and he hated doing it. But you know something I had more respect for him then I did my mother ( which did nothing to me) and another thing…when I needed advise in school, guess who I went to. That’s right my daddy. ( RIP) I love him. I am sorry but I don’t feel Mercades caused her harm, I will not defend anyone else’s actions in the situation because it was awful, but Mercades warned Tori that they were in there, plus if you read the statement from the victim, Brittany was outside yelling at Tori just like you said, then Tori went in the house removed her things from the residence went outside to Christine Dorsette’s car, and even after hearing all that yeling that you mentioned and the warningS from Mercades she chose to go back in the house. What happened was wrong, but Mercades did not cause it nor was she the Ringleader. She failed as a human Only by not jumoing in the middle.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 4, 2008 at 6:03 pm

  And hey, Mercades is ready for her sentence, so I really don’t feel it is appropriate for you to continue to critasize (ms) my daughter, why don’t you take a break from her and move onto the ones who acually did the hitting?

• gompertz
  Nov 4, 2008 at 10:22 pm

  Well, since I do have a few minutes I would like to reminisce about my own childhood and relate that to the situation of today’s kids. My father was not there and my mother worked full-time to pay the bills. So I had little parental supervision. But the way things were back in the 1950’s, I was never lacking for guidance. Strolling down the street, my friends and I could always count on the ever-present police car to pull up and check to see that we were not up to anything. In the city projects, maintenance men watched to make sure we stayed out of trouble, and don’t even think of stepping on the grass. Adults you didn’t even know would never hesitate to admonish us if we got boisterous. And the schools! Priests and nuns were always wielding the wooden sticks, bringing a painful reminder of the torment that awaited those who did not have the Fear of God in their hearts. Need I say that things aren’t like that any more? Back then, it was the whole community that raised the kids. It was never up to the parents alone. Today that world is gone, maybe forever. That’s why I never bought into the “blame the parents” thing. There are, of course, many parents whose kids become good adults, and they are to be commended. But I also know a lot of parents who try just as hard, and the kids wind up on drugs and in jail. The way society is today, good people are simply not rewarded for their efforts. One more thing, and then I will shut up. I freely admit that I have changed my former negative opinion about Mercades, and her mother. That came from looking at the evidence again. I saw that my earlier negative opinion was largely fueled by the reports I had read. Now if you type in “Mercades Nichols” on Google search, you get all these links with titles like “Mercades Nichols, who beat up Victoria Lindsay” and most of us do know by this time that’s just not true. Yet all those articles, with all their inaccuracies, are still there for all to see. How much of the current negative attitude is a residue left over from reading those reports that we know are not true? So, yes, I realized that if I’m wrong about that, there may be a lot I have been wrong about. What remains certain is that Victoria took a terrible beating and that some of the accused need to pay. What I don’t see is why some people seem to feel that being more kindly disposed toward one of the accused makes me less supportive of the victim. Where’s the logic in that?

• GregS
  Nov 4, 2008 at 10:38 pm

  gompertz thats because there isn’t a community anymore. This is due to politicians setting laws which deliberately weakened American families and parents in favor of giving government more and more control over our lives. I grew up in a generation where there was no community at all, the gangs were the only community I remember seeing, and the gang life usually lead to death or prison. So I don’t really know what it’s like to have a community. I’m not even sure it’s possible to have that besides on the internet or in cults in small towns.

  The only way to restore community is to support community policing, to support ideas which empower individuals, and promote individualism. But if you look what the politicians offer, they all offer collectivism, where you are supposed to basically give your children to the state, and let the government brainwash your children in school, and then let corporations turn your children into consumer zombies, and there seems to be no recourse.

• gompertz
  Nov 7, 2008 at 2:47 pm

  Greg, the deterioration of society is something I witnessed and sometimes I miss the “good old days” when life was simpler and people had values to guide them. Still, there were serpents in that garden of Eden. The Catholic Church was a pillar of traditional values and stability, it is true. Unfortunately it was also a hotbed of religious bigotry, and in that respect things have actually improved as interfaith dialogue is has replaced the former intolerance. So there is hope that a new sense of community can be created.
  The community that I saw as a child was not some primordial “state of nature” but was itself the product of centuries of social evolution and required the combined efforts of political thinkers and social scientists over the course of generations. Examples would be Edmund Burke, J.S.Mill and the Founding Fathers of this country, and let us not neglect Karl Marx, who had a lot of good ideas. Democracy and freedom are the product of toil and effort. The preservation of these values and the restoration of Community will be the result of a lot more toil and effort. Without the toil and effort we revert to a “state of nature” that is animalistic and that in no way resembles the utopian dreams of Rousseau and the radical Left of today. IMHO if you want to see what a “state of nature” would be like, take another look (if you can stand it) at the Lakeland beating video. That is how human beings act in their natural state.
  So the creation of a new community would involve input from all the social sciences, but especially psychology and also applications of mathematics that did not exist in Marx’s time. I think Marx did the best he could with what he had available, but we must do better. The construction of the society of the future will not be the work of a single individual, it’s just too much for one person, even if that person were a far greater genius than Marx. So there’s our program for the new society, at least in outline: teams of scientists and investigators from many different disciplines working with a common purpose, with the understanding that we can look at the work of the great leaders of the past as a blueprint for future success.

• GregS
  Nov 8, 2008 at 4:23 pm

  gomp you make a very good point, perhaps the reason why most of us were disgusted by what we saw in the video is precisely because it was a visual representation of the “state of nature”.
  The whole purpose of our legal system, the justification of having government, capitalism, and order, is to prevent the state of nature. Fortunately the state of nature usually does not last very long. Might does make right, and in the video the bigger girls in the bigger group had more might. Alternatively however the state of nature is also represented by the death threats these girls have received, that is also the state of nature and we have to prevent violence and restore order at all costs.

  This is why I ultimately narrowed it down to two kinds of people, and this is based on their mentality. You have the civilized people, these people are the ones who understand why it’s important to have laws, and who have been raised and conditioned properly. Then you have the savages, these people don’t respect anyone, they don’t respect their parents, they don’t respect authority, they don’t respect themselves, and through their hard work they work to bring down society, sometimes very deliberately by promoting the very behavior known to destroy society itself.

  savages exist in all races, all cultures, all religions, all parts of the world, it’s a mentality. Each one of us has met a person with this mentality. Sometimes we call it the thug mentality, sometimes we call them brutes, because this kind of individual relies on brute force, physical violence, and fear as their only means of getting what they want. Sometimes we call these people bullies, these sorts of individuals are known to adopt violent behavior even against the people who care about them the most, towards their parents, or lashing out and beating their partners up. The majority of our laws in my opinion should exist to modify and regulate the behavior of these sorts of individuals.

  But I don’t like the fact that a lot of our laws don’t seem to serve civil society. In fact some laws specifically empower savage society against civil society. This is the problem, empowering savage society only will serve to increase the popularity of savage behavior. A lot of individuals want to reduce the punishment for violent crime, while increasing the punishments for non violent offenders. This to me is only done to protect the most savage individuals while filling the prisons up with individuals who are for the most part civilized, but who perhaps have a lifestyle that many people disagree with politically. For the last time, I’m not tough on all crime, I’m tough on violent crime, and I think society has to be extremely tough on this sort of crime because it’s the only way to prevent society from collapsing. If people are allowed to get away with violence, it promotes violence and empowers savage society through the fact that if theres no punishment, it must not be so bad.

• GregS
  Nov 8, 2008 at 4:36 pm

  I think we need rules, and order. I think the focus of the rules and orders should be to protect society against the state of nature. This is why this case in specific is so important, because civil society is at stake. We want a community where our kids can grow up and feel safe right?

  I don’t even have kids, but I don’t think any kid should have to grow up in a decaying society that keeps getting worse. If anything, this trial should highlight the problems in society and motivate some people to try and fix them, at the same time the punishments will deter the less civilized among us, so that they think ["I ought to lock her in a room, beat her up and upload it to YouTube, but I don't want to end up like Hardcastle and April in prison."]

  The only way to give them something to think about, is to make the punishment scary enough that they think twice.

• Matteo
  Nov 8, 2008 at 7:46 pm

  To Christina, Greg, and Gompertz, This is what we all want to avoid.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feud

  The state of nature results in kin selection and blood feuds, it’s still a government, but everyone is mobbed up. It’s mob rule basically.

• Matteo
  Nov 8, 2008 at 7:58 pm

  Perhaps we should have a state sanctioned corporal punishment and public shaming program?

  How about a choice between public beating with a rod or cane and prison?

• gompertz
  Nov 9, 2008 at 12:36 am

  We all seem to agree that the “state of nature” is not a good thing. Civilized values are created by conscious effort rather than found by some return to a primitive state of existence.

  Unfortunately the prevailing view these days seems to be that human beings are innately good, and all that is needed is to remove those forces that obstruct this condition of natural goodness. This obstructing force may be identified as capitalism, or as some ethnic or religious group that has usurped power. These views are partially at least traceable to Rousseau, and have spread through Kant and Hegel to Marx and his followers, and influence the radical Left movement of the present day. What makes these views especially dangerous is the intolerance they inspire in their followers. Once you think you have identified the enemy, for example capitalists or communists or Jews or Blacks, or whatever, all that is required is the removal of that enemy, and you have that wonderful “state of natural goodness” which has been obscured by the offending group. This is how you get holocausts and pogroms and witch trials.

  In America the damage done by these idealistic views has been less dramatic but still very harmful. Though we haven’t had a Hitler or a Stalin, what we do have is a government that believes that bureaucrats and academics know better than families how to instill proper values in the young. So the laws in place today reflect the beliefs of defunct thinkers like Rousseau, even after these ideas have produced only disaster.

  So the first order of business is to oppose these harmful ideas, which have become entrenched in the schools and the government. How we oppose them is to implement rational, scientific methods of regulating society, and that includes a realistic, balanced system of rewards and punishment. Yes, I agree that some forms of corporal punishment must be reinstituted. Caning, for example, seems to work in Singapore, but Singapore is a small place, much easier to control than a country this size. I think the emphasis needs to be on balance. Look at what is happening in Florida, where some serious crimes committed by juveniles back in the early 90’s caused a public clamor for stronger penalties for violent crime committed by juveniles. However, today the penalty has swung to the other side and many juveniles are punished far more harshly than their offense would warrant. So there is much work to be done to maintain balance in the justice system.

  The need for balance is highlighted by the custom of vendetta. What if justice is NOT done in this Lakeland case? It is easy to imagine that excessive leniency or excessive harshness on the part of the Court could lead to the kind of interminable blood feuds we have seen throughout history, taking place in Florida.

  These already too-long comments are just a tiny sample of the kinds of problems that need to be faced as we try to restore a sense of community and purpose to social life.

• Scott
  Nov 9, 2008 at 12:23 pm

  I saw that disturbing link about corruption in Polk County. It was sad to read. It seems like Shefiff Grady Judd is up to his ears in trouble.

  I bet most people still think the girls posted the 2 Victoria Lindsay assault videos online but it was actually Sheriff Judd who had the 2 Tori assault video’s posted online. Posting rhe video online for eternity didn’t do anyone any good least of all Tori. And it didn’t do the parents and grandparents of Tori or the parents and grandparents of those arrested for assaulting Tori any good and the stress from this case has likely shortened the adults involved in this case life expectancies to some degree because of the agony they have gone through and will contunue to go through.

  I didn’t know the the ashes of Mercades Grandfather were in that glass shelf. That changes how I think of her imploring the girls not to hit the shelf. But I wish Mercades had just said stop the fight and that her Nana would be upset with it happening in her house.

  As for Tori now doing television interviews it’s long overdue. She should have done them 7 months ago. I hope doing he interviews helps Tori in some way. And I’m sure the interviews are about how she’s doing and not the legalities of the case.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 9, 2008 at 12:40 pm

  Hi:
  What article have you read? I seen the one in The Lakeland Ledger.
  I hope they don’t try and push her too much to say things she doesn’t want to talk about. The media does that alot, I am living proof of that! And yes I believe at least 10 years have been shaved off my life, at least.
  I haven’t been respondeing because I wanted to see where the posts were going about ” beating them with canes and stuff” ? That confused me and quite frankly scared me, I’m happy to see it was intended to prove a point, and that these were not actual thoughts.

• Scott
  Nov 9, 2008 at 12:40 pm

  As for her Good Morning America interview Victoria Lindsay says that she still has blurred vision in her left eye 7 months after the assault. :( What a shame. And I bet the probelms with her left eye were caused by the left hand punch from Briittni to Tori when Tori was getting up from the couch and very vulnerable. Whatever happens with Tori’s left eye somneone should have to pay for her medical bills for her eye and all the other doctors appointments and treatments she’s had. The Lindsay’s should not have to pay for it.

• Scott
  Nov 9, 2008 at 12:47 pm

  Hello Christina. The article you asked about was on the homepage of Good Morning America.

  I’m sure the media would love to pry pertinent comments from Tori about the case but that won’t happen. I can’t see Tori doing interviews other than going over how she’s doing. This is an odd time for her to do interviews when the assault happened over 7 months ago and the presidential election still on most people’s minds. But better late than never as far as Tori’s interviews go.

  Christina, I hope your 10 year guess is over the top but the case has to be eating you all up. The case just drags on an on and on. But Tori has to get justice served on her behalf no matter how long it takes.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 9, 2008 at 12:58 pm

  Mercades has been ready to be sentenced and to move on, but obviously the others want it dragged out as long as possible for obvious reasons. I have already said that I am willing to help, but I need this to come to an end at least for us, so that I can focus on how I am going to make money to pay off my loan shark I had to put my house up to get her attorney, and also help Tori. I am writing a book, but not about the beating ( people should know this) it is about how Polk County Corruption got the best of us.

• Scott
  Nov 9, 2008 at 1:22 pm

  I hope you all can move on and Mercades is sentenced fairly. I’m not sure what that is because she didn’t strike Tori like the other 4 girls. But will Mercades be convicted as a ringleader? Or for threatening Tori that if she went to the Police the next beating would be worse? Or if Mercades blocked the front door to keep Tori inside is that felony kidnapping? I’m still not sure what the facts are so it’s hard for me to predict. I do think Kayla Hasall and Brittany Mayes wil ge the lightest senteces of the 5 girls on trial. I do hope Tori gets justice and the girls get second chances after serving whatever senteces they get. And good for you Christina for trying to help the situation. Good luck with the book.

  As for April’s attorney grilling Tori in the deposition I wonder if that kind of attack will hurt all of the defendants in the trial.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 9, 2008 at 1:23 pm

  Ok, but I thought it was actually finally out that the girls didn’t post the video The Sheriff did, I don’t see that on GMA’s site. But everything will come out! When my mom prayes things happen : )

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 9, 2008 at 1:28 pm

  Oh, one more thing…and I’m saying this to you guys first. I understand many might say hmm…but when the Mercades is sentenced wether its probation or time in jail, I want it outside of Polk County, I don’t trust Grady Judd at all. I personally would rather see her do a little time then have to face that jerk for 5 years here, him breathing down her neck, any other Sheriff breathing down her neck is well deserved, but he is dirty.

• gompertz
  Nov 9, 2008 at 1:44 pm

  Christina, the “beating with canes” comment was surely meant for violent criminals, and anyone who is up on this case knows by now that Mercades is not a criminal, violent or not. I do believe that corporal punishment is appropriate in the case of really evil criminals, like that one on death row in Florida for raping a child and burying her alive. Lethal injection is much too good for the likes of him. Whatever Mercades’ role in the beating, it looks to me like she experienced a moment of weakness which she probably regrets. Whether the others have any regrets(other than regretting getting caught) I don’t know, it doesn’t look like they do, we’ll have to wait for the trial to find out if they have any remorse.

  Since I’m not a legal expert I don’t know if asking for a separate trial for Mercades is a good or bad idea. It’s just that her part in what happened was so different from the others. Of course she has already suffered from “guilt by association,” in the media and the blogs, and I’m wondering if the same thing could happen in a trial. Anyway I’m sure your lawyer knows best about that.

  As for the book, it will probably do well. Interest in the case died down for a while only because not much was happening for a while, but things will pick up again. It’s such an important case with so many different angles, and such an intriguing cast of characters, that I’m sure a lot of people will be writing about it. Your own point of view offers a perspective on the case that differs from others, and of course people will want to know your point of view.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 9, 2008 at 1:49 pm

  If Mercades had blocked the door I wouldn’t be out fighting for her everyday, and I sure wouldn’t be on here amongst you nice people. I would have hid my head in shame like many had thought I should before they knew the truth. And there is no way the can convict her for Ringleader charges because Tori has in her diary which was made public that BH was the Ringleader. And Mercades didn’t threaten her with another beating either, there was something said by Mercades but I chose not to get into it, for the simple fact that I am not anti Tori, I feel she made some mistakes, but the beating was terrible.

• Scott
  Nov 9, 2008 at 1:51 pm

  Christina, how is your mother? She looked like she was agonizing alot when she was in court. I’m sure this has taken a terrible toll on her life.

  I agree with you about the points you have made about the need to spank children. If you don’t they grow up with les respect for authority and that’s dangerous.

  I wish there was a way before the trial that Tori could sit down and have one on one supervised lunches with the girls so she could get some things off her chest. I’m sure her heart still aches about what happened to her and that ache won’t go away until well after the trial whenever that is. I think people need to remember that these are youn people we are dealing with here and they still need to find the right direction in life.

  And I agree with you Christina that if Mercades does jail time it should be outside of Polk County.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 9, 2008 at 2:15 pm

  Since the whole Court thing with my mom caught by the news, and I told her I didn’t want her speaking anymore, at first she got upset with me, but now that she is only in the background and not on TV I feel she is feeling better not great but better.
  As for the book, I don’t know alot about how I could do something like this, but here’s my idea..I want to do something off the top example: One publisher quoted me that they recieve 80% and I get 20% of each book sold. ( At first this sounded very unfair to me) if anyone knows is this is a good deal please let me know..anyway, keeping in mind that I am Mercades’ mom and not Hardcastle’s mom, say my book sold for 20.00 I don’t know maybe this is too much or too little but its only an example, rather then a check being sent to me and then in turn me send Victoria a check, I would like to have it set up that for every 20.00 book that is sold maybe 1.00-2.00 be sent straight to her towards her doctor bills. And then I get a check sent to me for 18.00. Please don’t attack me for the numbers, because I really don’t know how this works. I don’t feel it would be fair for me to send them half of the proceeds, I feel everyone needs to do thier share of helping. You know who I think would just excel with a book? Victoria herself, and a publisher should get a hold of her and offer thier services for almost nothing, she needs write, write and write some more. Remember, I was jumped in the same house, it was humiliating and I wrote my heart out in a journal, I hope someone has told her she needs to put her feelings down on paper! Write letters of anger and rage to each person, and then throw them away or burn them. The burning worked best for me. This really does work. Even her rejection issues prior to the beating, she needs to get her feelings out. You ask alot of violent people in jail what thier problem is..alot were subjected as children to parents that say that old saying ” A child should be seen not heard” I have always hated this saying, my father was allowing me to respectfully speak my mind at 2. By 5 if didn’t like something about my food in a restuarant, he would not send it back, I had to speak up but always with respect. Anyway, sorry for getting away from the subject at hand.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 9, 2008 at 2:22 pm

  I must add that after the rage letters, she should have closer by excpeting apoligies in the same manner, on paper not in person, because as we all know, for some things we could wait our entire life to hear ” i’m sorry” and never hear it. But in order to move on ourselves we must picture the person or people saying they’re sorry, excepting it and making dust.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 9, 2008 at 3:01 pm

  And can someone tell me why whenever I “X” out of this site, my computer goes nuts? Like 20 or 30 windows for this site just pops up one after the other. I have to shut my computer down and start over. : (

• Scott
  Nov 9, 2008 at 3:35 pm

  Christina, I’m glad your mother is doing better. It might be best for he to stay in the background. I’m sure this whole ordeal has taken a toll on her.

  As for the book 80/20 sounds like a bad deal. I think 50/50 or 60/40 would be fair for you. It’s nice idea from you about doing a book and having someproceeds go to Tori’s bills. You are being proactive with this and atleast you’re trying. Yes Tori should do a book if she can stand up to the heat she would take for writing a book about her ordeal. Having Tori write her feelings down on paper might help her get some of the hurt out of her system sounds like a good idea. Tori does seem to have issues to eal with and I hope the right people are helping her.

  And I like the idea of those who hurt Tori writing letters of apologies to her. But that won’t happen for legal reasons. They would be admitting guilt. But the assault was taped so it’s not like it’s hard to figure out who did what.

• Scott
  Nov 9, 2008 at 3:36 pm

  Christina, I don’t have the same issues with my computer that you do. That sounds like a real pain.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 9, 2008 at 5:23 pm

  I’m sorry you misunderstood me, I only meant thatshe should picture these girls saying they’re sorry and her accepting but only after putting her angry feelings on paper. And this is only for her sake. Why should she carry all this weight around for years until everyone decides they need to make things right? It may never happen, and for closure she needs to do these things, at least its my opinion.

• Scott
  Nov 9, 2008 at 10:46 pm

  I agree with you Christina that Tori needs to be able to vent her frustrations and feelings to people who will listen to her. And she need closure as well. I hope she gets it.

• amyv
  Nov 10, 2008 at 2:07 am

  Hello Scott -
  Yes I also believe Victoria should write a book. I am sure her book would stir a lot of interest. And, then she would have plenty of money to pay for the medical and therapy bills for the rest of her life.

  I did not see her on GMA but the fact that she will have permenant damage in her eye is so upsetting. Of course, their were many punches thrown and although we can say the probablity of it being from Brittini Hardcastle are high, might not be. April hit her , Kayle hit her and so did Brittany Mayes. So, even though Brittini Hardcastle was the most severe, I am sure a lawyer could argue it would be hard to pintpoint exactly which punch and by whom it was thrown, caused the permanent damage.

  So, So sad for this victim to have this damage for the rest of her life. This I am sure will affect the judgement of the court.

  Christinia - I am truely sorry that your health has been effected in such a negative way. I believe if the stress is to much, you should focus on the trial alone. Forget about the book deals and if you are getting the best deal. This is to much to handle at such a vunerable time in your life.

  And perhaps if you fear for you life from the sheriff the FBI should be involved. I would not be able to sleep at night.

  Are you living with your family now? You need a support group. And your daughter needs her mother by her side. Please clear up the rumor that your grandmother was rasing your children? I do believe you had said Mercades was staying their because you were having difficulty with her? Correct if I am wrong.

  Of course you have had a lot to say about Victorias living arrangements. But, I have not heard you say much about Mercades living arrangements. Just curious. Do not take this as an attack. Just as we will assume your facts about Victoria as not being attacks.

• LawAndOrder
  Nov 10, 2008 at 4:59 am

  Reminder: The Tori interview is airing today. Good Morning America, which starts at 7 AM in ET, and Inside Edition later in the late afternoon.

• Scott
  Nov 10, 2008 at 7:58 am

  Hi Amy, I would hope Tori’s serious list of injuries from the assault would affect the judgement of the court. But who know with courts and juries and judges. I

  One of the things that struck me most was that I read in the Good Morning America article that while Tori was in the hospital she was sitting up in the hospital bed with her knees covering her face still terrified of what happened to her when her father came to visit her. We know those girls did alot of physical damage to Tori but the emotional damage they did to her was incaculable.

• gompertz
  Nov 10, 2008 at 8:38 am

  Hi everyone, waiting for the GMA interview in a few minutes. I just wanted to reiterate a point I raised before. The trial(which will probably be televised, right?) should reveal something about the perpetrators which could be useful in determining what a fair sentence should be. One would of course look for any signs of remorse, or the lack of it. What if the defense attorneys make good their threat to attack the victim on the witness stand? How would the defendants react to that? They would be right there watching this, and they may give some indication of how they feel about seeing Victoria victimized again, this time by the lawyers. We will see whether they still harbor an abiding dislike for Victoria, strong enough to elicit some sentiments similar to the “Ooh, yeah baby…” everyone found so disgusting. Though they would try to conceal such feelings, it could be revealed in subtle ways that a competent judge could detect. Let us hope JUdge Spoto is competent, and objective enough to take such things into account. If the girls demonstrate that their hatred for their victim is so extreme{and we still don’t know if it is} that they could constitute a threat to their victim in the future, shouldn’t that be something that would affect the length of their sentence. On another blog someone reported that at least one family, April Cooper’s has acquiesced in their attorney’s despicable tactics. I still don’t see how that is supposed to help the defendant the lawyer is supposed to represent, though the attorney wins no matter what, because he gets to appear tough and ruthless and impress his affluent clients.

  I heard a few months ago, It might have been on Nancy Grace, that April Cooper’s lawyer is working pro bono. I wonder if that’s true. You don’t have to be a Latin scholar to understand, “pro bono, cui bono?”

  BTW it was reported on this blog a few days ago that the hideous Joran van der Sloot is up to no good, good to see GMA is on the case. Maybe this time he will belatedly be brought to justice.

• Scott
  Nov 10, 2008 at 9:46 am

  Victoria’s Good Morning America interview was pretty good. She looked fine but it’s a shame she still has vision in her left eye.

  I’m perplexed by Talisa Lindsay’s reaction from the interview in her wanting to hug the girls who assaulted Tori. That’s a nice gesture on her part. But enough already Talisa. Tori will be assaulted again at the trial and that will hurt her deeply. I hope Tori has professional help in dealing with her emotional scars from her assault. I’m sure her agony runs deep.

  Gompertz, you can bet the defense attorney’s will try to slander Tori’s character during the trial and pin the blame of the assault on Tori on her. It’s obvious to me that’s what’s going to happen.

• gompertz
  Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 am

  The interview was well worth waiting for. Victoria’s gentle demeanor, and the fundamental goodness she and her parents displayed cannot help but reinforce her image with the public.

  Scott, as far as the forgiving attitude of Talisa, one might look at it as a sign of deep spiritual strength that Victoria could draw upon when she is under attack. With the despicable lawyers ready to do their worst, it is shaping up as a battle of good vs. evil, and that may be the best way to look at it. If I were to advise Victoria, I would counsel her to not yield to negative emotions like fear or anger but to take the example of Talisa, because that’s the best way to get through the coming ordeal. I’m not disagreeing, I too share the anger and outrage. I only suggest that the best approach to dealing with the kind of violent attack Victoria is facing might be to take another direction. It’s like in Tai Chi, where you learn to be very calm and relaxed, more calm and relaxed than you ever thought you could be. And that’s how you can overcome the fiercest attack, physical or otherwise. And it doesn’t have to be tai chi, you can draw your strength from Christian belief or other religious sources, as Talisa seems to do. Just my opinion.

  Now as for the interview, was I asleep or did they edit out a few pieces that appeared on the transcript? Not sure. But here’s the thing that is certain: of the five, only one was singled out, and that was Mercades, whose name and picture received special attention. Does that show that the pattern of deceptive reporting about Mercades is really about someone’s special agenda, or is it just sloppy reporting?

• Joseph
  Nov 10, 2008 at 10:36 am

  Well do not know where to begin. Followed this whole Payton Place drama story for awhile now. But after stumbling upon this blog, it shed’s the plight into another dimension. By this I mean,whom ever thought that Ms. Christina would contribute so heavily into all that we have had the priviledge of reading and seeing. Pardon me if I happen to offenf anyone, but I look into a persons heart, and feel the anguish of what that persons feeling.

  Whether, from the victim or the suspects, and the loved ones. As mentioned, this blog has started awhile ago, I’ve read everyone to date,and cannot be more displeased with some of the comments. the “old, he said, she said”. Tori doesn’t look pregnant on GMA today! Her and her parents said nothing distasteful and her mom showed me a woman filled with love and compassion for the one’s that wronged her daughter. I have to admire that in a person, it showed style. Then I hear Christina, venting upon our law enforcement of this country, she may have all this anger and distress proven soon.
  But then, maybe not. She like anyone else in her position,wants closure. Unfortunately, it takes time and perhaps God’s will for truth to arise and all wounds heal.

  It takes a cold heart, for people to judge one another and to make up shameless stories, start rumors and gossip on the internet. They think that they are heard. They are, but it also hurts the people that are most affected by what’s happened. Christina and her Mom, Tori’s parents and so on.

  Christina, wish I could say more, but I do not want to invade your privacy at a time such as this. I do not agree with some things that create threats, and especially violence. I know you must feel vulnerable to what lies ahead, but please you didn’t need to mention the armed weapon bit. Keep things such as that private, and just arm yourself with prayer, he’ll hear you. As for what the publisher said (80/20), sounds about right. You need to understand, you create the concept and write. They edit, proof, establish rights of author, print,add graphic, endorsements and promote. When you write more books, your value goes higher. The time is coming, when the truth will come out for everyone’s sake. In my opinion as unbiased as I can be, is do not be surprised if only two of the children get the no more than 2-5 years in jail or a combination under probation with community service, and unless there is reason beyond a doubt, anyone not in that video should be aquitted. However, the one thing that lingers in my head is detrimental. It involves the one girl, named “Cara”, whom worked the camera. She provoked much of the violent senarios, with her comments which were heard while taping. She was released amazingly and I think she’ll appear as a states witness to testify. Same with maybe one of the two boys. The remaining girls will probably go into some sheriff’s work ranch, mainly for counselling. So the drama continues and will end soon for the sake of your community down there, and the media can find something else to share with the world, as they always do.
  My thoughts and prayers are with all the children and their families involved in this unfortunate case. b.”what you do for the least little one’s of mine, you did for me”. God Bless.

• Scott
  Nov 10, 2008 at 1:22 pm

  Gompertz, you could be right about how Talisa’s forgiving nature could be helping Tori in this case. I hope that’s the case.

  And yes Tori does seem to have a gentle demeanor about her.

  Joseph, that was a very well thought out and very fair post. But it’s been reported that it was Brittany Mayes working the camera most of the time and not Cara Murphy. I’m not sure what’s the truth here. But I think there’s a good chance Brittnay folmed the assault more than cara did.

• GregS
  Nov 10, 2008 at 5:11 pm

  Remember I tried to show how this experience is life changing, after being physically attacked in this way it permanently changes an individual. This shock conditions some individuals to favor using violence themselves. In other individuals this shock removes a layer of innocence and trust, they no longer trust humankind and it changes their world view from thinking all people are good inside to thinking that people are cruel by nature. I think if you read what Tori has said, she’s lost her ability to trust people, this means she has lost the layer of innocence. She basically said in one of her interviews not to trust people, I believe it was in people magazine?

  This is a violent crime, while I cannot predict precisely how this changes Tori I can see that she’s already been changed permanently by this. It’s very similar to how rape victims are changed permanently by it, it’s not something to take lightly and this is precisely why we have to give harsh punishments to the girls who physically did this. I’m not going to give them extra mercy because of their gender, if this had been a group of guys that did this, would we even be talking about how they should just receive probation? The emotional damage of being trapped in a room and jumped while being verbally harassed is equally damaging no matter what genders are involved in the crime, it’s a life changing event.

  It’s safe to say at this point that this experience is going to harden Tori, whether this results in a stronger Tori or a weaker Tori depends entirely on how she adapts to this. Some people have PTSD like symptoms where they have nightmares of the event for years. Some people have anxiety attacks where they just get anxious whenever they are in a room locked room with strangers. Some don’t get any psychological effects of this sort and instead just go with an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Some start to distrust humanity in general.

  Usually guys experience this sorta thing at some point, as a lot of guys have been in situations where their friends turned on them and jumped them or whatever. If you have been in a situation like this, just think back to the time when your best friend betrayed you, or think back to the time when you got jumped that first time, at some point you may have began to view humanity differently because you’d see that these people had no remorse.

  I think a lot of people are sheltered and so they believe all humans have remorse and empathy, and only the people who literally see the look in the persons eyes actually see the other side of humanity. Like how some people will show their good side all the time but then when nobody watching they show you their bad side and you recognize it as familiar only because you’ve seen this side of humanity before. But the shock is in seeing it the for the first time, and that is life a life changing moment, it’s like seeing a person die.

  My opinion is, the girls who beat up Tori need to have their lives changed permanently, and I think prison is the best way to bring these changes to them. I think if they don’t get prison time it’s just going to allow people like them to go on and cause more damages to people emotionally.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 10, 2008 at 5:33 pm

  Mercades was there, and she told me it was Cara whom taped it.
  As for where Mercades’ living arrangements I have no secrets, Part of my civil suit is because of the National Lies about how I didn’t have custody of Mercades. Its garbage, I have custody of both of my girls. If you look at my myspace.com account which was froze after PCSO went in and erased thier emails to me questioning me. But its still up there. It tells the entire story, she was simply there to help my mom after some surgery and to attend Mulberry Highschool. Sure, I was having some troubles with her, bbut nothing abnormal ( only normal teenage things) I raised her, i mean think about this, why would I chose now to lie about something like that? She isn’t exactly being honored. Right? But all the nonesense that he said nationally are lies lies and more lies! No affense to anyone but if they TV the trial on Mercades I hope they do the same for the Federal case.
  As far as the gun situation, I mentioned on here for 1 reason, I want HIM to know I am equipped to protect my family, maybe if he knows he won’t bother coming for me. I know maybe that sounds stupid, but I don’t want him coming to my house, nor do I want to be put in that position. I just hope he stays over there and lets this thing play out in court.

• Didacticus
  Nov 10, 2008 at 6:01 pm

  If Cara taped it all, then WHY does Cara APPEAR in the video (unlike Mayes), why does Brittini point SIDEWAYS from the camera when she mentions Cara and TOWARD the camera when she mentions Mayes, and why is the voice of the camera operator in BOTH videos nothing like the voice of Cara?

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 10, 2008 at 6:10 pm

  One more thing, and this is simply my opinion, I don’t think her book should go for any bills that had to do with the beating, people need to take responsibilty for thier own crap. I don’t feel Mercades herself did damage to Tori only that she didn’t get in between, but I have chosen to step up to the plate if this book deal goes through. Whats right is right. As for me spending too much energy on writing…well to be honest, writing out my feelings is what helps me the most, if I didn’t have that I think I would’ve went crazy along time ago. And I like the waythey said ” The video appeared on the internet” People are so scared to tell the truth! How did it appear on the internet? The story was told to make the public ( you guys) to think the girls put it on there and then the cops caught them, boy he just didn’t know who’s mama he was messing with, Mercades turned the video over. I’m going to go for a bit, I’m getting worked up again. I’ll be back later my friends.

• Scott
  Nov 10, 2008 at 6:43 pm

  Thanks for the information Christina. But please be careful with the gun. Did Sheriff Judd just make a mistake about saying you don’t have custody of Mercedes because he heard that? or did he know you did have custody and told a mistruth anyway?

  And yes I knew early on that Judd had the video posted online and not the girls even though they had a couple days to do so. I heard that when they watched the video the girls decided not to post it because they knew it looked bad and made them look bad. Is that true Christina?

• gompertz
  Nov 10, 2008 at 6:44 pm

  Anyone who saw the GMA segment this morning will know that Mercades was singled out, even if only for a moment, it was enough. I doubt whether it was deliberate on the part of GMA, but probably just more of the same laziness and sloppiness I’ve seen all my life from media people. They just take whatever has been stated in previous accounts and copy it without doing any fact-checking on their own. So the original account given by the sheriff is accepted as truth, and no more research is needed. Please note, though, that nothing that Victoria herself said would contribute to that impression, though in the minds of casual viewers(and that’s most of the audience) it won’t matter. The damage is done on the basis of the original account, and the lies and deceptions proliferate because of the inertia of the media. Hopefully the court will sort it all out objectively. From what I’ve seen and read about the judge, at least he seems like a serious, sober person who can remain calm and objective.

  Greg, I know from experience exactly what you mean by the lack of remorse, the inhumanity. It certainly looks that way in the video, and of course male or female are capable of it. As for Victoria and other victims, getting justice in court and seeing perpetrators punished is part of the answer. Beyond that victims have to help themselves by making the right choices of whom they choose as friends and associates in the future. Hopefully Victoria and also Mercades will see the value of making martial arts training a part of their lives from now on, when the trial is over. You are right, this kind of experience changes your life, but you don’t have to let it destroy you. There are people out there who can help by teaching self-defense and meditation so that the terrible things you suffered can lead to a positive outcome.

• Scott
  Nov 10, 2008 at 6:46 pm

  Tori came accross very well today on both Good Morning America and Inside Edition. It took Tori over 7 months to do any television interviews and then she has 2 in one day. Tori’s television interviews were long overdue. She seemed composed and forgiving to those who assaulted her. And on Inside Edition it was reported that Tori doesn’t want the girls who were arrested for assaulting and improsoning her to go to jail. That’s a very generous, forgiving and Christian attitude for Tori to have especially considering those girls left Tori with apprent permanent left eye damage, nightmares and fear of strangers and most likely intimidating female strangers. I think it was a wise move for Tori to do these 2 television interviews. She and her parents came accross well and didn’t say anything to iflame the situation.

• gompertz
  Nov 10, 2008 at 7:09 pm

  As for the posting of the video, of course the facts aren’t all in, but isn’t it possible it was never intended for the internet, but only to circulate in the local community? I am not for one moment suggesting it would make the act of taping it for private showings any less heinous, if the motive was to further humiliate the victim. But it makes a difference in evaluating the motive of the sheriff in airing it, if we thought the perpetrators were going to put it out on Youtube anyway. By claiming it was going to appear on the internet anyway, and that there were more cameras on therefore more copies which presumably had not been intercepted, the sheriff’s intentions in posting it would be less suspect.

  Why do I think it may not have been intended for the internet? Again, just a conjecture, but it just doesn’t have the “look” of the typical “girlfight” video, of which there are many. There’s a certain appearance or style that’s common to these videos, they are generally just about the physical fight. This one is different, because it has a story line. It’ involved someone named “Elmer” and some other names that would mean nothing outside the local community. Why would they think the airing of personal grievances like that mean anything to people in New York or Europe?

  I repeat, it is a horrible thing to do to anyone, to beat the person and also tape it, whoever is the intended audience. Still, one must ask, who gained benefit by putting it out there for the whole world to see, except the sheriff?

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 10, 2008 at 7:11 pm

  Whatever the Sheriff’s reason does not matter to me, he should’ve checked his self and documents before making statements as facts when they were not true.

• gompertz
  Nov 10, 2008 at 7:49 pm

  Scott, haven’t seen the second interview yet, I think it airs a little later in the evening here in NY. As for Victoria’s forgiving attitude it’s truly uplifting. From the point of view of a crime victim’s mental and spiritual health, I think it is important to not harbor feelings of revenge and resentment. That kind of feeling can consume you and you can wind up victimizing yourself all over again. One can look at life as a battle and, just as in a martial arts fight, a person’s anger can be used against them. So I think it’s good that Victoria seems to be beyond anger, and is behaving like a good martial artist would in a fight. And yes, it really is a fight and there are evil people, savages as Greg calls them, who will try to destroy Victoria and other good people.

  A forgiving attitude is not inconsistent with being a realist. By forgiving the other, you dispel your anger and free yourself to deal with the opponent flexibly. Now it is up to Victoria’s attackers. Will they now be remorseful and accept the judgment of the Court (after all, forgiveness doesn’t imply freedom from responsibility and facing the consequences) or will they respond with anger and hate as before? Then those out-of-control emotions will harm only them.

  And as for those attorneys who have calculated that their rich clients in the criminal world will be impressed by attacking and slandering Victoria? Isn’t it possible that even those hardened criminals will be disgusted with these attorneys tactics, when they see this gentle child suffer abuse in the court? Remember in Florida there are some heinous child murderers on death row, who have to be segregated from the other prisoners. Hardened criminals do have certain limits as to what they will condone, especially when it comes to attacks on children, and these lawyers should consider just what impression they will make on prospective clients, even if those clients are on the wrong side of the law. Anyway, I offer these random thoughts for whatever they are worth.

• Garland
  Nov 10, 2008 at 7:51 pm

  Hi, Christina, how are things going? I’m glad that you have gotten everything out in the open with what happened between you & Mercades. I also hope that your book deal goes through & becomes a success. You have my sympathy, & I hope that you, your daughter & Victoria can make amends after this trial is over.

  On another note, I praise Victoria & her parents for the way that they handled themselves during the interview. Of course, I haven’t watched it myself (was still asleep at the time), but according to these posts, it was very much like it. I can only hope that things will come for them at the trial. Good things.

• gompertz
  Nov 10, 2008 at 8:04 pm

  Didacticus, the impression I had was that Cara and Brittany took turns with the camera. I do still think that Cara got away with something by having all charges dropped. The harm done to the victim was partially caused by the humiliation of having it recorded, however the tape was intended to be used. So even if she only did the taping for a short time, she was still an active participant, right?

• Scott
  Nov 10, 2008 at 10:27 pm

  Gompertz, it could very well be that Tori has let go of the anger at the girls for what they did to her. if she did then that’s good because that means she will have a chance for happiness instead of always being unhappy and feeling like a victim. But I still feel that Tori’s attackers and their attorney’s will be out for Tori’s blood at the trial.

  And if Tori truly feels the girls should go to jail that might mean she has no plans to file civil suits against them.

• Trench Reynolds
  Nov 10, 2008 at 11:05 pm

  You’ll have to forgive me everyone. I’ve been asleep at the wheel. I previously banned Didacticus or whatever he’s calling himself this week. Once banned always banned with me.

• gompertz
  Nov 10, 2008 at 11:24 pm

  Scott, I must have missed that second interview, couldn’t find it anywhere. The one interview I did see, and the second I heard about. And judging by that, she is surely a good and peaceful person. And yes, of course she will be attacked. Someone just posted another smear against her on the Wire, saying what a violent, nasty brat she is. And the lawyers have nothing better than these same tactics, what else can they do? The only other possibility is to try to show that the video was generated by some really great computer graphics.LOL

  If the jury sees this girl as we saw her today, how could they believe the smears? That kind of desperate trick would only backfire. And what if she broke down and cried, that would only help arouse sympathy.

  As for Talisa, being compassionate and offering forgiveness is not weakness. Compassion is not sentimentality, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Talisa turns out to be a tougher opponent than some people think for those who would deny justice.

  On another note, seeing what a peaceful girl Victoria is, how likely is it that she would have a violent thug for a friend? I thin just as we see through the accusations against Victoria, we are beginning to see that the accusations against Mercades are distortions and lies. It seems more likely that the girl who took care of hurt animals had a temporary lapse of courage and judgment that day, and hopefully she can be reconciled with her friend soon.

• gompertz
  Nov 10, 2008 at 11:26 pm

  Sorry, Trench, we had no idea. We’ll all have to drink more coffee and be more vigilant.

• Scott
  Nov 11, 2008 at 12:33 am

  Didacticus = Davis Stein? ;)

  Gompertz, it appears the smears are going to keep coming at Tori. She doesn’t deserve it but people keep ripping her. Of course it has nothing to do with the trial or what happened to Tori during her assault and imprisonment. The video contains the facts. Everything else is just rumour.

  I hope Tori does some more interviews. She comes accross well and as someone who is reserved and gentle.

• GregS
  Nov 11, 2008 at 4:26 am

  Actually the Tori interview only made me more angry at the girls in the video. Victoria as a person ,s he might have flaws but she seems like she has a lot of potential and overall is a good person.

  This only makes the actions of the girls who beat her up look much much worse. Because Tori is someone who is easy to relate to, just about anyone can relate to her, which spells doom to the girls seen filmed in the video showing her no empathy or remorse at all.

  Mercades is not evil, shes just a bad friend. I don’t think Mercades is the problem because shes not violent. I think these interviews if anything will help Tori look good, nobody is going to believe the hearsay. Whether she was pregnant or not, whether she made threats or not, the video followed by that interview will linger in viewers minds beyond any of the rumors.

  Justice will include jailtime, I’m sure Tori doesn’t agree with it, this may be out of fear or compassion but I believe that comes from an emotional place. But I’d personally prefer a justice system which does not rely on human emotion but on the rule of law and on what would have the best impact. I think for a lot of people it would feel good to let Brittini Hardcastle and April Cooper go free, but if you look at the effects it’s had on Tori, theres no way we can let them go free now.

  I think this case and these interviews are only further dividing the two camps, on one side the law and order faction that wants the punishment to fit the crime, and on the other side you have the let kids be kids Bill Maher faction. Brittini Hardcastle is 17, thats not a child, thats practically an adult. April Cooper is child like but her behavior isn’t all that child like and she’s capable of physically beating up a 17 year old so she’s not exactly harmless either. Let the jury decide.

• Scott
  Nov 11, 2008 at 7:53 am

  Greg, you make a pertinent point about how Tori not wanting the girls to go to jail may be out of fear. I agree. That would be fear in her community in my eyes.

  And that was a good one about the Bill Maher faction which I’m also sick of. ;)

  As for some people saying Tori wants to fight and is making threats I would think that’s not true or it’s exaggerated. But if by chance it is true I blame in laege part what happed to Tori on March 30, 2008 for making Tori bitter and angry. But Tori seemed just the opposite of bitter and angry on her 2 television interviews yesterday.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 11, 2008 at 10:41 am

  Well, by now you guys all know I feel the legal system here in Polk County doesn’t want to do whats fair for anyone. We’ll see when Mercades finally gets her offer, what it is.

  What blogs are you guys talking about that have smears on it? And are they the facts I have brought up or just a bunch of crap that are most likely lies?
  Who is Bill Maher?
  Thanks

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 11, 2008 at 11:02 am

  One more thing that has been bothering me so bad and I reacted to the comment early on, on TBO. The video was never going on youtube or myspace like The Sheriff noted, ( keep in mind he was promoting his cybercop CD) when this happened. Wether we think its sick or have other opinions, the 2 wanted proof they won a fight that the victim had been saying she wanted, I doubt she ( victim) was crazy enough to ever say she wanted to fight them both at the same night, but the media makes it also look like April and Britt were both on her at the same time. The situation itself is bad enough to punish these children ( yes children) why add more lies on top of it, were they afraid the truth wouldn’t be enough to hold up in court? I think not, a combination of an election, CD’s ( made by Sheriff), veiness, and just plain good ol’ boy mentality is the hidden agenda. This was BIG enough and no reason at all for making it into a terroist attack.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 11, 2008 at 11:11 am

  Again, I feel like I need to say I am not Anti Tori, what happened to her was atrocious. I believe that the girls wanted to bring the video to school, that was thier intention. To show some of the people that Tori was bragging about how the 2 girls were scared of her. It got way out of hand, a girl was beaten beyond belief. I do wish I could hug Telissa and tell her I am sorry for misplacing my anger for the Sheriff against a person who sure didn’t need it : ( And explain I really thought that The Sheriff was getting his information from Tori therefore thinking that Tori was resposnsible for all these lies that were destroying us and causing the death threats, and then I bought the packet from the courthouse and read what the victim acually stated : ( I didn’t think a Sheriff could be capable of such bunk!

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 11, 2008 at 8:32 pm

  Well, we went and got all the police reports from her ex ( Jake the Snake) constantly harrassing her sending 5 girls over to beat her up. I wish I had a scanner to share this with some people on here whom I have drawn a little close to. Dates are as follow: 1/17/2008…3/07/2008…3/6/2008…and 10/7/2007 the cops witnessed texts, and on top of all this the report of him sending the girls and 4 dudes to the house was after the injuction! I’m going to try and go to the library to scan these and show them to anyone who might be interested here..

• gompertz
  Nov 11, 2008 at 10:08 pm

  Wow, I just got home, I see a lot of stuff posted over on Topix, I’ll get to that in a while. Anything about the Snake would be interesting, I have to confess that the first time I saw him on TV I couldn’t stand this guy, and “snake” sounds about right.

  I also wanted to comment on the book. Probably it’s a good idea to have an attorney deal with the publisher. If you key in “book royalties” on google, you find there’s a lot of information you need to know over and beyond the figure they quote, whatever percentage it is, you can’t tell if it’s good or bad for you without the lawyer to sort out the specifics. It’s like if you take out a mortgage on a house, you wouldn’t just accept the lender’s offer without knowing whether it’s fixed or adjustable rate and a lot of other things,right? The same with dealing with publishers, if they say 20% do they specify whether that applies to every book sold, or only if a certain number are sold, or what? So, an attorney can help, and yes, I know, attorneys are expensive. Still, the fee for negotiating with a book publisher must be a lot less than the fee for a trial lawyer. Anyway, that’s my two cents about that.

  Now, as for the intention of posting the video, I said something about that a while ago. It just doesn’t look like the kind of video that gets posted on the internet, with all the references to people that nobody would know or care about outside the local area. I think the only one who intended to air it for the world to see was you-know-who;)

  Also, Christina, I know this whole mess has been rough on you and your family and you are in our prayers. I think that writing these things down and setting the goals you have set for yourself are very positive and will lead to success.

  As for the sheriff who is riding the wave of public approval these days, we must remember that popularity is a fickle thing and can disappear overnight. One example is President Bush. It’s been said before but it’s worth repeating. Who would have thought, in the days right after 9/11 when Bush ha d an approval rating over 90% that we would be electing an African-American president with left-wing democratic credentials and a middle name Hussein? The same reversal of fortune could happen to somebody in Polk County.

• Scott
  Nov 11, 2008 at 10:53 pm

  Christina, as for the blogs that have posters that smear Tori Polk County Topix is the main one I think. Maybe Gompertz or Garland would know better though. As for smearing Tori they seem to want to take the focus off the case of Tori’s assault and focus on something else. Tori may well have serious issues she needs to deal with. But none of this has to do with her assault or what sentences the 5 girls should get. Violent crimes were committed against Tori and that’s the issue. And if Tori ever seriously said that she wanted to fight April and Brittni that’s very foolish and dangerous. Especially knowing what short fuses those girls have. Tori had no chance in a fight against April or Brittni so why she would want to fight them is perplexing to say the least.

  Christina, I don’t know why you would ever think Tori woul be responsible for the hate mail and death threats you and your family received. Tori and her family have not talked negatively about those arrested. Nor have they inflamed this sad situtation at all. It was the media the recklessly published the contact information of the 8 teens arrested in Tori’s assault. That was a big mistake and whoever published the names and addresses of the 8 teens I would thinbk could be sued for endangering the lives of the teens and their families.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 12, 2008 at 9:23 am

  What I meant was that all the lies the sheriff was talking I thought he recieved from the victim. Later finding out The Sheriff was acually branching out on his own agenda : ( I didn’t realize this, I mean who would’ve thought. I had a dream last night that I was at a table telling Grady Judd how I feel about him, so maybe thats a sign that I will get more then my day in court with him. As far as a lawsuit on behalf of Mercades for him and the media putting her life in danger, I don’t think the public is ready to support any civil suit for her. YET. I say yet, because when and after I release information then I think the public will be better equipped to judge for themselves. I will google the book royalties as you suggest.

• Amyv
  Nov 12, 2008 at 9:25 am

  Scott and Greg - I haven’t been on for a while my father has been very ill. I don’t think I will be posting anymore and this should be a relief for Christina.

  Greg - I agree with your post most of all. I must admit I had to skip of reading of the post but I get the jest of where these conversations are going.

  It is beyond belief to me some of the things I am reading on this post. The support for some of these girls is growinrriri stronger and for the victim lessening.

  I was very impressed with Victoria’s composure and maturity during her interviews. What ho rrible nightmare this girl was put through. Not just by the ones who hit her but everyone that was involved in any way. Every one of these girls were a part of this and non should be excused. They all sat there taping, cheering on the beating or participated in it.

  It keeps being repeated that two girls hit her. Every report I can find it was four. We hear all their chanting and egging on in the background and all of that is not coming from Brittini Hardcastle.

  Whether they say there like a lump and did not bother to help their friend or actually hit her they all caused her severe emotional and phy.
  sical distress period.

  Christina - Just as what I say to you will not matter, your response or anyone elses that comes to your defense matter less to me.

  How dare you get on here and bash Victoria. You
  say you are not but you manage to sneak in comments every chance you get. Who are you kidding with “Victoria wanted to fight these girls but, I don’t think in this way”.

  Who knows if she every said she wanted to fight them. That is their words against hers. I choose to believe the victim.

  Stop with the blaming the sheriff, media and everyone else. These girls and all of them alone are to blame. Stop saying you support the victim when you say sly little things whenever you get a chance.

  My hat is off to you though. You are quite the sly one. And extremely manipulative. If you can get a whole bunch of people to feel sorry for you and view you as a victim you are very good. All the while planning on writing a book, profiting from it and continuing to blame everyone else.id
  You have also laid some of the blame on your own mother. Stating she refused to let you discipline Mercades and that caused some of the problem.

  I am sure a lot of people will have a lot to say about my comments but, as I have said before I don’t really care. I also believe you have some paranoid delusions about the sheriff. You need a gun? Come on everyone wake up and really read these posts.

  I know a lot of this sounds hateful but, your intentions don’t fly with me. But keep making everyone feel sorry for you. And, like I said before save your strength for court. I don’t think your tactics are going to fly their.

  God bless Victoria. Give her the strength for what she continues to go through. And, hopefully she has some decent human beings as friends now. And, if she wants these girls to go to prison because she is scared. That is beyond sad. But, I am sure these girls would know way better than to every lay a finger or go near this girl again.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 12, 2008 at 11:17 am

  Yeah when I’m laying in a dam casket remember your words…jerk. I am manipulating? I don’t think so, I may not word things as you would want them all the time. When I made the statement about her wanting to fight the girls, I never ever said both of them at the same time that is nuts. She has said in the past that they were very scared of her. And them both ganging up on her in a way kind of proves that to be true. Why not face her one on one and not noth in her face. You are just plain retarded, saying that I am just trying to profit off a book, my family has been through hell! And yes it was from the Sheriff giving false information, what are you Grady’s child melosting nephew ” Marcus Judd” ? ( proof on the PCSO cyberstation jail records. I do have some brass ones, to be able to come on here and face my enemies. As far as my mother, I know what went on in our home, you don’t and never will. I have taken many chances opening up in here about the truth of my life, the good the bad and the ugly. How dare you say I am bashing the victim, you sound alot like the troll over there on youtube TheViking aka Webring40 . You are the one on here trying to manipulate people. I don’t see anywhere on here anyone saying “oh hey, Mercades should get off scott free” or ” Tori isn’t a victim” She is a vicitim and because I am part of a very constructive critism blog and we’re all getting along excpet you upsets you for some reason. I don’t know if I’ll be back on here again, for this very reason. Everyone can go back to bashing Mercades as if she were the one who hit Tori, if they like. To be honest I don’t think this will happen because everyone here is equipped with the truth. I don’t care that you don’t believe me, my fears are real, waking up with nightmares about Grady Judd are all real. And what about Kalina ( my little girl that is 7) ? What about her very real fears, in your eyes should she bare the punishment as well? Mercades is well ready for her punishment, you don’t see her trying to hold up court dates. And you say 4 girls hit her? I am sorry but I can’t help but laugh at you, everyone in this world knows who hit her. Do they maybe have internet on Mars? Because that is where you have to be typing from. Jesus Mary and Joseph please help this fool!

• gompertz
  Nov 12, 2008 at 3:04 pm

  I wasn’t going to post today since I’m busy with work, but I felt I needed to express myself with a few brief remarks.
  Christina, I do understand your anger today. How can someone imply there is a subtle lessening of support for Victoria and yet admit that they do not even read the posts but only skim them to get a general impression? I give all the posts careful attention, and as for the ones posted by Garland on Topix, yes I really did read them several times because I thought they were important. (Sorry if I sounded flippant about it over there, didn’t mean to)

  Two things need to be understood about my support for Mercades. First, it is based on LOOKING AT THE EVIDENCE OBJECTIVELY AND NOT EMOTIONALLY. I presented my reasons in some of my posts here. Anyone can read it if they want to,or they can ignore what I write. But I wish people wouldn’t reach conclusions without giving my posts the same attention as I have given to theirs.
  Second, there is no reason to assume that I cannot be supportive of BOTH Victoria and Mercades, and if anyone thinks there is such a reason, I”d like to hear it.

  Anyway, some people post on these blogs to vent their anger, and of course they say what they want. If people want to say things like: “Those horrible evil girls should burn in hell forever and be raped by demons, etc.” they have that right, and it may be therapeutic for them. I only hope no one thinks that by expressing these emotions they are helping the victim. To really HELP the victim requires some kind of commitment from people who are in a position to know what she needs, both in terms of getting over the beating, and whatever personal problems she may have.

  Scott, I think you did a very good job of sorting out the issues concerning the attacks on Victoria over on Topix. But now I really have to go!

• demand justice
  Nov 12, 2008 at 3:17 pm

  personally i think sheriff judd is TOO SOFT… look at some of his videos on you-tube… his jail is too comfy.. all sheriffs neeed to be like sheriff Joe Arpaio of Arizona… the aclu has sued him dozens of times so he must be doing something right

• GregS
  Nov 12, 2008 at 3:31 pm

  Scott the posting of the contact information is not the work of the media. I think it’s the work of a group of individual hackers who decided to take matters into their own hands.

  The media gave faces and names, that alone is all it takes to get any amount of information or “dirt” on anybody. The medias part in this is zooming into Mercades Nichols face and labeling her the ring leader. The combination of the name and face made it easy for hackers to do their work. Because I happen to have expertise in information security I can tell you that just about every database is unencrypted.

  A. Medical records are still stored in file cabinets in offices and it’s not hard for someone to access the information stored in that.

  B. Schools store parents names, and all sorts of useful information, and may even include social security numbers.

  C. The police dept has databases too, everything from arrest records, to sex offenders, to terrorists, they have information as well and it’s accessable also.

  The methods of accessing databases is so easy that a teenager could probably do it. A skilled group of hackers could easily get someones home address just from a name using old fashioned tools like the phone book, and if its an unlisted number then they can use Myspace to find out what school the individual went to and get the information directly from school records, and on top of that, Myspace just makes life easier for hackers by putting all the information needed in one convienent place.

  I came to the conclusion that it was hackers when Christina told me about identity theft. If that really did happen it’s not something the media would do. Also its not really easy to sue because the hackers might not even be from the USA. And to top it all off, any individual could have simply paid them to illegally track these girls down, simply by offering a reward for information about the girls in the video.

  I don’t think Victoria is behind it either, I think it was probably just some people who saw the video and who felt like it was necessary for them to take the law into their own hands, and perhaps the corrupt police dept encouraged this behavior, I don’t actually know, but identity theft is a crime committed by hackers, and it’s very likely that private investigators and hacker groups are involved in tracking the activities of the girls involved. The death threats on the other hand was probably the result of this information getting into the wrong hands, and the problem with information is, ALL of us are vulnerable to the same sorta attack because almost all information in all databases are unencrypted and so any crazy groups can access it.

  Yes that means the KKK/Nazi Skinheads/Aryan Brotherhood can access peoples medical history and get peoples home addresses and the addresses of their loved ones. On this issue of hacking and stalking people, we should all stick together on this, regardless of where we stand on the trial.

• LawAndOrder
  Nov 12, 2008 at 4:23 pm

  Actually the press release PDF released by the Polk County Sheriff had their addresses and phone numbers. Not sure if it’s still up there, but it was on their website at one time.

• Christina Garcia
  Nov 12, 2008 at 4:47 pm

  Law and Order is correct..the hackers as you stated nor the media could’ve known whom to screw with had The Sheriff not released these items. Period.

• Garland
  Nov 12, 2008 at 5:47 pm

  As I suspected on topix.com earlier. According to Victoria’s former boyfriend on Topix.com (see this here:

  http://www.topix.com/city/lakeland-fl/2008/04/8-teens-arrested-in-beating-of-lakeland-girl/p311?threadid=ORNG40EBG086IH4I),

  Victoria does indeed have a Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), & Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD). I think that it’s very sad for the way that most of it comes from not having her biological mother in her life & that she gets angry very easily over little things. Disorders like those DOES happen to children & Adults that don’t act out normally. There is also Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), Conduct Disorder (CD), & Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FAS). I feel very sorry for Victoria, & I still believe that she is a good person inside, she just made bad decisions in her life, that’s all. Perhaps that ought to be explained at the trial. Would any of you think so?

• Scott
  Nov 12, 2008 at 6:37 pm

  Amy, I’m sorry to hear that your father is not well. I hope he gets better. I also hope you keep posting. If not here then at Topix.

  Yes Tori has been through alot and will probably be dragged through the mud at the trial. Tori came accross very well on her 2 television interviews. It’s my hope she understands how well she came accross to the viewers and that that’s how she needs to relate to people all the time and not just when the TV cameras are rolling.

• GregS
  Nov 12, 2008 at 6:39 pm

  Garland, STOP ATTACKING VICTORIA.

  Usually I stay neutral without getting emotionally involved, but since you are obviously an individual who is emotionally involved I’m using you to make a point. Digging up Victoria’s possible medical history, or scanning the internet to find her disorders is just plain evil. Stop trying to paint her as being “crazy” or “mentally” ill, she’s a troubled teen, most teenagers at her age have those disorders or worse, so how does this help?

  Every one of these girls seems to have disorders, and just about every human on earth has a disorder because thats just how psychiatry works, it basically only tells people how sick they are, and I think thats the last thing any of these girls need.

  If any of the girls at all need help, it would be the Hardcastle and Cooper, both who seem to be sociopaths/psychopaths and violent. I’m not making a diagnosis, but it’s just an observation.
  If you want to talk about mental illness, focus on the two girls who are on tape with their behavior for the world to see and leave the victim alone.

  My advice however is just to leave psychiatry and medical records out of this entirely. Let all of the girls have their privacy, including the two girls who beat Victoria up. And if you are a part of the media, you should at least respect some of the social norms and boundaries of privacy and not dig into peoples medical history, it’s bad enough these girls have their names, addresses and video tape all over the internet.

• Scott
  Nov 12, 2008 at 6:42 pm

  Garland, if the prosecution at the trial says Tori has a history of making bad decisions I think that would open the door to character assasination of Tori by the defense and I do not want that. Now the defense may take this tact anyway but why open the door for that?

• Garland
  Nov 12, 2008 at 7:46 pm

  Greg, I’m NOT attacking Victoria. I’m telling everyone what is happening before people jump to conclusions about her saying that she is a bad, mean spirited person, which she really isn’t. I never dug up her medical history, never tried to paint her as crazy, etc., or anything like that, I just had a feeling of what was happening with her, & other people that may be having those things. Her former boyfriend was the one who explained things of my suspicion, that’s all. I’ve been on Victoria’s side the entire time, & will always be. Don’t take things the wrong way.

  Scott, I do agree with you that the defense shouldn’t use her lifestyle to assasinate her character. Wouldn’t they need to counter something by that?

• Garland
  Nov 12, 2008 at 8:24 pm

  Perhaps that I shouldn’t have brought that up. I’m not an evil person, etc., as I’m not the type of person to do that to someone (& I NEVER have), & I’m certainly not part of the media. Just thought that I want to clear things up with you, Greg. Plus if you notice on topix.com as well as some other sites, I’ve been on Victoria’s side since day one of the incident. I never condoned what the girls did. If you say that I’ve been attacking her, then I apologize.

• Scott
  Nov 12, 2008 at 10:14 pm

  Greg, I think you misunderstood Garland. He has been supportive of Victoria since the beginning and has gone out of his way to be kind to her. I think you took Garland posting Tori’s ex boyfriends alleged information about Tori like Garland was attacking her. He certainly wouldn’t do that. And I find it peculiar and sad that some people like an alleged ex boyfriend or alleged girlfriend of Tori’s are posting alleged personal information about her online. It’s no wonder Tori has major trust issues.

• gompertz
  Nov 13, 2008 at 12:24 am

  Greg, you are right to defend Victoria from attack. Still, I think, like Scott does, that there was nothing sinister in Garland’s posting the information. As someone who has himself made well-intentioned statements which did not have the desired effect, I feel I might try for an explanation of the matter, as I see it. All along, some of us, including Garland and me, have agreed to desist from probing into Victoria’s private affairs. That seems only proper, and so things have remained, until the recent attacks started to appear. These attacks seem to have been a reaction to the renewed interest in the case fueled by the news of the deposition and the TV interviews.

  Why did that make a difference? Well, there were many accusations directed against Victoria’s character which might lead people to see her as depraved and morally corrupt. Redirecting the focus to a medical or psychiatric perspective could be seen as an attempt to defend her from the charge of moral depravity. If so, I agree the attempt was ill-advised.

  Still, the information has been made public, and not by Garland, but by people who have grudges against Victoria for whatever reason. More important, it’s clear that those evil lawyers have gotten their filthy paws on all her private information by now, including medical records. All of it is going to be out there if they get their way, and they probably will. All of us who want justice have to brace ourselves from the onslaught, and be ready to defend the truth.

  It is good to have these discussions and exchange views, and if they get heated, that’s not a bad thing. You were angry at what you perceived to be wrong, and that is good. I expressed anger in a previous post, and that, too, I think was good. However, anger is not the same as condemnation. As for my own exasperation which I voiced before, my intention is to renew communication rather than close it down.

  Also, I join Scott in offering my condolences to those who experience illness and other misfortunes in their family. May everyone get past these troubles and find peace.

• Amyv
  Nov 13, 2008 at 2:38 am

  Christina - Even though I was quite blunt with my opinion, I refrained from calling you any names. However, once again your true colors are coming through. Although, I am not surprised you did that to me. A jerk, think what you want. Retarded, please refrain from using that word with anyone as it is associated with down syndrome and should not be accepted within our society.

  O.K. so now I am the nephew of the sheriff who is a child molester. Or the troll, etc. No. I know none of these girls. No I do not know the sheriff. No I am not his nephew (ridiculous).

  Gompertz - I have never once condoned death threats towards any of these girls. Never have I said they should burn in hell. I have had many good discussions with you in the past and we have agreed on some of the issues.

  Also, my mistake saying I skimmed through the blogs. I tryed very hard to read over them all but am having problems with my eye sight. I should have been more clear. I also have paid close attention to the facts of this case. I have never accused any of these girls for doing something they did not do.

  I believe Mercades did not hit Victoria. I believe Cara Murphy did not hit Victoria. Victoria stated this from the beginning. However, If the other two girl did not hit her why, have their been no reports to the contrary. The victim plainly states that they did. Also, We are being told this is the whole tape. Do you have the proof to support this? Or is their truely portions of the tape we have not seen. Because every article I have read and researched states the tape is approx. 30 minutes long.

  Christinia - No I am not typing from Mars. But, I am sure if i was you would say there was a conspiracy against you their as well.

  Of course I would never wish distress on your young daughter. Hopefully she is being shielded from seeing this appallling and extremelly violent tape. Also, death threats against her should be punished severely. Or anyone else in your family.

  I say these things about punishment for these girls and justice for the victim because I want a safer environment for all teenagers. And, this was as someone previously posted violence beyond 101.

  Christinia have you every had a friend, someone you considered one of your best friends betray you. I have and it is more psycholoical pain than I have ever felt physically. It is heart wrenching. And, this is what your daughter is guilty of.

  But, enough is enough. I do not wish to argue with anyone on this blog. I just disagree with some of the things being said. And, no since I was quite sure I would be jumped on by people on this blog after I spoke my piece, I do require acceptance by all.

  Last comment to you. Please refrain from invoking the name of jesus, mary and joseph followed by the comment of helping this fool.
  Call me a fool if you wish. However, the lord knows me. You don’t.

  Scott and Greg - I will miss blogging with you.
  After the trial, we willl know all of the details. Especially if their is more on the tape. So perhaps once, as Gompertz says we have ALL OF THE ACCURATE FACTS WHICH NO ONE HAS SINCE
  THE ENTIRE TAPE HAS NOT BEEN RELEASED, I will come back on and more light will be shed on the participation of each individual in this case.

  Once again God bless Victoria. I will continue despite criticism, I will be an advocate for victims only. As, I feel our society has forgotten that they indeed come first. No Gompertz this is not a personal assault on anyone on this blog.

  Christina - I do not, nor have I ever said your daughter deserves any of the horrible things others have said. But, I think you minimize her and Kayla’s role. Kayla was especially brutal towards Victoria. Awful how she degraded her during the beating. But, if their is truely more tape, the truth will come out. And, it will be much clearer to everyone.

  Gompertz - You say you base your opinions on facts not emotions. Out of anger I have been called a fool, jerk, retard. Open your eyes. Goodbye

• gompertz
  Nov 13, 2008 at 2:41 am

  Greg, I also want to refer back to some points you made a while ago. You drew a distinction between civilized people and savages, and that is surely valid. You say the savage relies on “brute force, physical violence and fear” to get what he (or she) wants. True. I have known many of these savages, and they rule mainly through intimidation. I don’t work in banking, but many of my friends do, and they have the same story to tell, of people whom they characterize as savages in business suits. These savages are capable of observing the rules of civilized behavior if that is what it takes to get what they want,but they are quite ready to revert to more primitive methods if need be. These people are ruthless and tend to rise to the higher levels of management through intimidation. And here is my point, and I wonder if you agree or not. It seems these people are rightly called savages even if they never actually resort to physical coercion, because they could always resort to physical violence if necessary, and everyone knows it. And so, it is no longer necessary for the savage to exert himself physically, since the laws and customs of society are made to reward him just for succeeding in making others fear him.

  then there are those like Joran van der Sloot, who is back in the news, luring young girls into slavery through deception, apparently without actually coercing anyone. He is certainly inflicting harm on unsuspecting victims. Wouldn’t he also qualify as a savage?

  In my discussions with people who call themselves libertarians there seems to be a reluctance to disapprove of any behavior other than actual physical coercion, and I wonder what you think of that. Some have told me that no one need be intimidated by a “mere threat” and that no one should be deceived by anyone, since everyone of sound mind should be able to acquire the information to make correct decisions about any subject. Do you think these views correctly characterize the libertarian position, and if not, how do they need to be modified?

• gompertz
  Nov 13, 2008 at 3:57 am

  Amy, thank you for clarifying some things. I am sorry about your eyesight. Please remember that my reference to people who wish for horrible punishment was not meant to characterize your view, since we have already discussed that many times.

  I did not direct any insults at you, at least I am not aware of any. Of course I have no reason to be angry, and yes it is easy for me to speak of reconciliation, as I sit here snug in my NY apartment with time to reflect calmly. Not that I don’t have problems, everyone has problems, they are serious enough but not spectacular or immediately threatening. So I can read my spiritual books and feel very peaceful, and that can be a trap too. Yes, I question my own commitments, and that is as it should be. I try not to be smug and complacent and I sure don’t think I have arrived at some kind of spiritual goal.

  I just try to improve and keep going over these questions. I don’t think I have lessened my support for Victoria. And I think about this, how can “support” translate into anything that is truly useful? I come to these blogs with the rather extravagant hope that we-all of us-are really creating something of value here. Ideas are powerful and the Internet is so new, and its influence still expanding in unforeseeable ways. And when you have the application of this powerful new technology to the primitive savagery of cruel bullies doing what they have been doing since time immemorial, you have to step in and show that technology can serve the purpose of good also. I don’t know if I am making sense here.

  My point about Victoria, I don’t speak about her much, not only because I don’t really know her, but because it is not right. What if I did know her, would I take advantage of that knowledge as people on Topix have been doing? Of course not, neither would you. I have characterized her as being peaceful, gentle, and good. What more can I say? What more can I do except try to be useful in alleviating the suffering of all the Victorias out there, you can find them everywhere. And, yes, I’m willing to bet that Mercades is also suffering, in a different way. As for the others, we don’t know.

  I don’t get involved in discussions about the length of the tape, whether Kayla hit Victoria, I’m willing to wait, and we might get answers soon.

  As for Christina, I am not naive. I don’t think about her motives, I don’t think anyone is pure, we are human. I am convinced that she is truly concerned for her daughters. Also, I’m sure she is under a lot of pressure, and I believe that these small-town sheriffs are not the pure John Wayne type heroes they are supposed to be. I think she does have reason to be truly afraid of this sheriff. I base it on my personal knowledge of how things operate in small towns. In the large cities, the corruption is real, but it is concentrated at higher levels of government,and doesn’t affect the regular citizens directly. But in smaller towns, well, the corruption is right there, at the local level. Anyway, I sit in my nice warm apartment and have time to reflect on everything peacefully, a lot of storms have blown away and left their marks on me, and new storms will come. I won’t presume to tell you what to do, you are always welcome to be here. I like to think that we are in the process of creating a new higher consciousness here, and it is not easy. Would you believe I have agonized over these blogs, I have regretted things I wrote and felt bad about what some have said to me? So I’m too sensitive, I guess, but that’s alright. But there are a lot of things about me I will not talk about, because they are not relevant here, and it is about Victoria and all the victims out there.

• gompertz
  Nov 13, 2008 at 9:59 am

  Now if Amy is reading this, and I hope she is, I mde some personal reflections about my ow condition in a spirit of reconciliation. But I think everyone needs to reflect, including Amy, about what they write and how it may be received by the one it is intended for. Brief and to the point, I would rather be called “fool” and “jerk” than to be characterized as “sly”, “manipulative” and “paranoid”. And that’s not an attack on anyone, and I am not defending Christina, who defends herself well by herself.

• christina Garcia
  Nov 13, 2008 at 11:02 am

  Thank you…I don’t have anything to say to that other person, I personally feel if i feed into his or her negativity any more it just pulls the focus off of the real vicitim here, my skin is thick, I do think its funny that only person that turned the tape over and the only person who is ready for thier sentence is the only one being picked on and attacked ( not by everyone on here) Lets put our focus back on where it should be..how Tori is doing and real justice being served. Enough already about me, yes I know I am the most hated person in the world, maybe even worse hated than my daughter. But as a person pointed out when the truth comes out in trial we shall see. As far as the 30 minute video just prooves my point even more about the Sheriff, it wasn’t that long and that’s why there never more released. The Sheriff is the one who released the videos both of them, and then media put it on the net.

• GregS
  Nov 13, 2008 at 2:52 pm

  Gomphertz I don’t believe that con-artists, hackers, and intellectual manipulators are savages. These individuals are exploiiting the ignorance and stupidity of others for their own gain, and while this could be considered mean I don’t consider it savage and see it as fair game. The intellectually gifted should be able to get what they want using the power and force of their intellect, and as long as there is no threat of physical force, I’ve got no problem with it. Basically I’m a libertarian and I agree with the standard libertarian definition of force as “physical”. I don’t think we ought to sue each other over hurt feelings. And I do think that on some level, there will always be stronger and weaker individuals in any society as we cant all be equal.

  I consider savages to be the people who rely on physical violence and fear to get what they want rather than deception, and I’m not endorsing deception but at least the individual who gets to the top using deception is highly intelligent. In the context of war deception is key, I’m sure you’ve read the art of war. Joran van der Sloot wouldn’t have been a problem if the girls he seduced through deception didn’t end up missing. I think all of us have to compete for the best women, and some men knowing they have nothing to offer, perhaps they don’t come from rich families, perhaps they aren’t as good looking as we are, and perhaps they don’t have good character, these sorts of guys have to rely on their deception ability just to reproduce at all, and I don’t view it as immoral to outsmart, persuade, or seduce someone into doing what you want them to do.

  Physical violence is the only form of violence I wish to see ended because physical violence does not promote evolution, or progress, it simply brings us back into caveman status. I recognize that there will always be competition for resources and deception is necessary to win that competition. Intellect is a form of might that I can respect, violence is what weaker people resort to when they cannot win the war of ideas or win the duel of minds.

  Just as some people who lose an argument just decide to take it to the physical level and beat the person up who won the argument. That is savage behavior.

  Amyv, I’ll still be checking back here and posting here, so we shall see each other again.

• amyv
  Nov 15, 2008 at 2:47 am

  For my daughters sake and every other teenager out there, I would like to apologize to any one I made personal comments about.

  Since, I am a big advocate for nonviolence both physical and mental, I went against my own rules. These are strictly adhered to in my home. My daugher and her friends know that I do not tolerate bullying, fighting or emotionally picking on another human being. If I see anyone exhibit this type of behavior they are no longer welcome.

  And, I did the exact thing I am so against. You can have an opinion and not have to resort to expressing at all or in an ugly way.

  I can be accused of thinking with emotion. We have discussed this before. I just expect everyone to be born with kindness and love for people. And, I agree this is not the case.

  Kids learn by examples set my the adults around them. Since, I have zero tolerance for bullying, I need to practice what I preach.

  Their is however things that have been said on this blog that I find confusing. Why is it that Victoria’s exboyfriend blogged about her alleged psychiatric problems and a few people took it as true and even stated they had suspected emotional problems with Victoria? Yet, Mercades boyfriend is being bashed and called a snake for allegations that he made.

  Of course Mercades mother would know more about this by than anyone here. For those of us who don’t know him their has been a little bit of rush to judgement to say they didn’t like him from the minute they saw him on t.v. Is this not what we have been accused of with Mercades?

  If the rumors spread about Victoria are true, which no one hear knows if they are, what a private issue to discuss that is no ones business and bears no relevance to this case.

  We also have he said she said about whether Victoria every threatened these girls. So, I will reserve judgement on that as well. I do not believe their is factual proof of that one.

  Also, the fact that these girls did not hit Victoria at the same time makes it no less brutal. And, I believe that it was April Cooper who hit Victoria when she tryed to get up off the couch. This was immediately following the brutal beating Brittini Hardcastle had just given her on the couch. This is on plain to see on the tape.

  I agree that more than one girl took a turn filming. Victoria said Cara Murphy and Kayla Hassel both taped. I do not know why Cara Murphy was let off but, perhaps lack of evidence and for the fact that the victim specifically stated she and Mercades where the only two who did not hit her. But, we have already heard she will testify against the other girls.

  Also, she was not in the car with the other girls who drove Victoria away from the house. But, as I have stated before I believe everyone their is guilty of a crime. So I do agree dismissal of all her charges was not appropriate.

  I know a lot of this we have hashed over many times. But, the issues with some of the things coming out about Victoria are new. And since medical records are private, her exboyfriend has no prove to back up his words. So if we are going to be far to everyone, we must also disregard this as it is not a proven fact.

  I have said many times Mercades was not the ring leader. That to me would be Brittini Hardcastle. But, they all broke laws to different degrees so the punishments must be fair.

  I also wonder how the conclussion can be drawn from seeing the video what these girls planned on doing with this tape. To me personally it does not matter whether it was meant to be posted on youtube or used to further humiliate he victim by showing it to people. Both of these actions are equally disturbing to me.

  I have not bashed any of these girls on this blog. I am just trying to be less emotional and asking questions to gather hard facts and not just heresay.

  Hello Scott and Greg. Hello to everyone.

• gompertz
  Nov 15, 2008 at 4:41 am

  Amy, good to hear from you. I am sorry about my angry outbursts, it accomplishes nothing and leads me in the same direction as those who beat Victoria. Yes, it is easy to get emotional about what we saw on the video, and about the subsequent behavior of those who committed this act, their lack of remorse. I myself went through several stages, first a thirst for terrible forms of retribution, then swinging over to the other extreme of being very lenient, seeing them all as victims. As with everything one needs balance, finding the middle way. So balance means just punishments, and we have gone over that enough times, what a just sentence would be. It is easy to get deeply emotional about this case. So, that is precisely why it is so important to reflect on it, what it all means and what we can learn from it. Calm reflection doesn’t destroy emotion, but regulates it.

  There are many aspects of this case that I don’t like to think about too much, simply because the evidence seems to point to different conclusions, like how long the tape is. What if it turns out that there is more tape, but less than thirty-five minutes? That kind of question will have to wait until the trial.

  When I said about Jake the BF that I didn’t like him when I saw him, of course I wasn’t looking at his appearance, I can’t judge appearances. I’ve mentioned it before, and let me just reiterate that I generally take the side of the woman in thesematters, because it is usually(but not always) the woman that suffers the most abuse.Call it a personal bias, it’s based on my own life experiences. Seeing how young guys I knew treated their girlfriends, like getting them pregnant and running away, I found despicable. What could a girl do in the 60’s, without even the right to legal abortion? And society was not kind to unwed mothers in those days. And I don’t see Mercades as a threat, I think she was hurt and confused and that led to her weakness, her turning her back on her friend. You asked if people know what it’s like to be betrayed by a friend, yes I do know, it is terrible. But I think back at my own behavior sometimes, and I wasn’t always the best and most loyal friends, I too had my moments of weakness, so I can’t judge too harshly. Again, more will come out at the trial, hopefully.

  As for the new allegations about Victoria it is despicable that people reveal these things publicly. I looked at the charges that are made, and of course I don’t know whether any of it is true, what are the motives of those making these charges, whether they are working for the defense or are they genuine. However, to me none of it makes any difference. There simply is no excuse, no mitigating factor, that lessens the evil of what was done to her, as you say. So there is no point in speculating any more about that.

  I do hold out hope that all can be rehabilitated and get on with their lives. Even Brittany Hardcastle, who aroused so much revulsion, in me and most others, what if I say I hope for her recovery from the violent madness that possesses her? She looks so angry, and we don’t know if that anger comes from pain she suffered, maybe childhood abuse. So maybe there is hope that she can deal with the pain and turn it around. Of course that does not mean getting off from having to pay, and the sentence should be severe, but not excessively so. Putting a number on it, I don’t want to repeat it, we have given opinions before what a just punishment should be, I see no reason to change it.

  Now at this point I need to stop and say good night, I just want say again that I apologize for my anger.

• amyv
  Nov 15, 2008 at 10:13 am

  Gompertz - Thank you for your apology and for accepting mine. We have always managed to have differing opionions on issues but maintained a civil attitude toward each others opinions.

  I think if you blog immediately after watching the Good Morning America interview anger seems to take over our remarks. And, if their are anymore interviews I will blog after some reflection.

  I watched the interview again this morning only for the purpose of making sure I was getting facts straight. I try to avoid watching the tape at all but, it was part of the interview. I was looking to see if they were singling Mercades out. What I saw was they showed her picture at the beginning and said it had occured at her house. We all know this to be a fact. However, they never called her the ring leader and when showing the video did not focus on her but the part where the beatings were taking place.

  I did not feel that they focused on her anymore than any other teenager involved in this crime. Certainly Victoria and her parents did not mention her by name at all.

  Also, much has been made of the fact that this beating was a result of trash talking on the internet. However, very little is mentioned on the tape it self about that fact. Much more is said about boys. Their were many, many remarks to the victim about boys and a key word used to initiate the beating was the name of a boy.

  So, when Victoria stated in her interview that she thought it was over boys I believe she is 100 percent correct. The video it self supports this theory heavily. I also do believe their was a lot of jealousy going on with these girls that beat her up.

  I think we do go by past experiences a lot when making conclusions about others. But, in recent experiences in my life I have a guy friend that is beaten up by his girlfriend. And they are all adults. So I don’t believe the man or boy is always the one to blame. I am not sure in this case as we do not have enough evidence.

  Once again god bless Victoria and her family they are truely remarkable. After what she was put through, they have all maintained dignity and have displayed courage in what must be one of the most heart breaking times in their lives. I will continue to keep them in my prays.

• christina Garcia
  Nov 15, 2008 at 11:06 am

  Have we ever thought that maybe the media might not be singling her out anymore, because they don’t want to find thier names under the Sheriff’s in Federal Court? They seen what happened to him after he lied and singled Mercades out. But up until now, they have singled her out terribly, airing Mercades’ mugshot on one side on the screen while airing the beating in the other, as to say mercades was Brittany. I don’t need to explain this, everyone saw these videos.

• Garland
  Nov 15, 2008 at 2:37 pm

  I wholeheartly agree with you, Gompertz & Amy. Victoria’s lifestyle has absolutely nothing to do with what happened to her whatsoever. I can’t understand why the defendant’s lawyers would go & do such a thing like that. Heartless, & cruel.

• Garland
  Nov 15, 2008 at 2:57 pm

  Plus it’s ridiculous of some posters such as Mocral68 & Riverwater1 of what they’re posting about Victoria here:

  http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=story&id=6212572

  I’m sorry, but people need to STOP bashing her. I don’t care what is going on in her lifestyle or what happened, but people need to STOP trying to justify what happened to her because of her alleged lifestyle. She certainly DID NOT deserve what happened to her. They need to grow up & get lives already. If they don’t have anything to say nice about her, don’t say anything at all.

• gompertz
  Nov 15, 2008 at 2:58 pm

  As for the GMA video. I only saw it once, and I couldn’t find the second one at all. I wanted to see the first one again, I may be wrong, but did they mention Mercades” name when they showed her picture? I don’t think they mentioned the names of the others. It doesn’t seem like much, but since the whole segment was supposed to be about Victoria and how she feels, that’s where the focus was, as it should be. They just showed enough of the video to refresh people’s minds. And the way they showed the picture of Mercades was to show her face clearly, even if just for a moment. These things can be subtle, but the media know what they are doing, they know how to use psychology to influence people. We all know about subliminal advertising, right? I wish I could have seen the GMA story again, but I didn;t get the chance. Still, I am left with the impression that, if I had nothing else to go on except that GMA segment, Mercades is the only one of the five thatI could pick out of a lineup;)

  And of course Victoria did not say things that should be left to the trial.

  The allegations that flared up about her might tempt me to start a whole new line of speculations, like what if they are true, or what if they are not true, etc. But I’d rather leave it alone. Speculations like that would only serve to allow me to demonstrate my cleverness in constructing hypotheses, and that wouldn’t help anyone.

  As for the BF issue, as I said I go by my experiences, including my own adventures, and I have encountered really vicious violent women. Still, there are many more men who fit that description, and while abuse goes both ways, the aggressor is far more likely to be the man. I guess we have to blame biology for that. So, for the present let’s just say I have a gut feeling that Mercades is not a violent person. I look at those mug shots taken back at the time it happened, and I try to figure out what I see in the eyes of the people there. In BH, I see someone who is not just momentarily angry, but whose anger is perpetual. Maybe behind the anger is some deep pain, we don’t know. With BM it’s as if she is working on her image, perhaps trying to look pleasant for the camera. Again, just an impression. AC, from the picture, seems defiant and comfortable with the tough-girl image. What about Mercades? Well, that first impression was, it is as if she is asking herself, “How the heck did I get here?” I”m not a psychic, but that is what I felt. And BTW don’t juries make decisions on the basis of gut feelings? Sure, the trial will reveal a lot more information to aid the jury in making a fair and balanced decision, but intuition still has its place, and judges encourage juries to use every means at their disposal, including feelings and past experiences. Anyway, there’s my opinion, and anyone is free to disagree.

  Opinionsaside, I think it is beyond dispute that the media have been unfair to Mercades. They have gone way beyond the available evidence to convict her in the court of public opinion. Where the documents showed that she had acted inappropriately, the reports exaggerated the degree of danger she posed to her “targets.” And the evidence shows that Mercades had her reasons to be angry. That’s how it is with people who have been in relationships, and some people are adversely affected when the relationship goes bad while others move on without apparent bad feelings. In some cases, it is just that people are different, but in this case, there is evidence that the BF was not blameless. I may be wrong, but I think that evidence is also available to the public?

  So anyway, looking forward to the trial, and there should be a pre-trial hearing again this week. What happens with that, might tell us if we can finally expect to get the trial done any time soon. If the judge keeps granting more and more delays, we might not get any resolution until after the end of President Sarah Palin’s second term. LOL

• gompertz
  Nov 15, 2008 at 3:10 pm

  Garland, the attacks on Victoria we have seen the last few days are really terrible. We just don’t know if the allegations have any basis in truth, but even if they do, it shouldn’t matter. Unfortunately this type of thing might actually work with some jurors, and that’s what the defense attorneys are hoping for. The video is simply too clear to allow of alternate interpretations, so all they are left with is attacking the victim’s character. They might try for a plea deal, but SAO isn’t offering any. And I really don’t think either the defense or the prosecution cares about the victim, and that is tragic.

• christina Garcia
  Nov 15, 2008 at 3:58 pm

  I can only hope Mercades’ attorney is not one of them…and hey I thougt her ex was the one who brought this jumk, is it really the defense?

• Scott
  Nov 15, 2008 at 11:57 pm

  Amy, you use the key word alleged in one of your posts about Tori’s alleged psychological condition according to her alleged ex boyfriend. If it’s true that this guy was her boyfriend and revealed such personal and private information about her on the internet then he really wanted to embarrass her. Tori needs to choose her boyfriends, girlfriends and friends more carefully in the future.

  And Amy, it was Hardcastle who pummeled Tori on the couch and then punched her in the left eye as she got up from the couch.

  P.S. - On a side note I woudln’t expect the trial to begin until sometime in 2009. And that’s dissapointing.

• amyv
  Nov 16, 2008 at 1:13 am

  Gompertz - It is strange how peoples perceptions are different. I saw Mercades picture only briefly on GMA and it was only to state that the incident happened at her house.
  I like to think that every thing is so corrupt that we are now being shown subliminal messages. I could not have picked her or any of the other girls out in a line up after this interview. Perhaps your able to remember details better than I.

  Since their really has not been much in the media about this subject lately it is hard to say if they have any hidden agendas. But, I really don’t know what could be gained by this.

  Surely good morning america could not know this sheriff. Or his power in this country would be terribly concerning. As for them learning a lesson from what the sheriff said, has that case gone to court? I have seen nothing new on that either. As far as my limited information nothing has been done to him to scare off any attempt to make Mercades out to look bad. Please let me know if he has been convicted of anything or reprimanded as I do not go to a lot of the other blogs. So just as we do not know the out come of these girls trial, we can not perdict how the law suit will go either.

  Off subject but I just read that Casey Anthony is sueing Gonzalez the woman she claimed kidnapped her child. She says it is causing her embarassment and the woman is harrassing her. I don’t know why my jaw dropped over that one. You can sue anyone for anything these days. Even if you are the one who potentialy commited a crime. This woman can not even get a job because of this girl. If it wasn’t so ridiculous it would be laughable. Maybe this is why the courts are so backed up because of frivilous law suits and they can not give a speedy trial to a victim who deserves one.

  Gompertz - It is odd how different peoples perceptions can be. When I first saw these girls pictures something struck me about Britney Mayes. Sorry if the spelling of her first name is incorrect. I am tired and did not look it up.
  Her face looks so sweet and innocent and I thought I saw something in her eyes that I did not see in the others. Then I found out she was the one making those disgusting noises on the tape, the Oh yes baby. Also, the victim stated she was one of the girls who hit her.

  It is funny how different faces effect different peoples perceptions. I do agree Hardcastle and Cooper both have a hardness to their faces. But, Kayle who does not was one of the most hateful, at least verbally on the tape. So looks can definitely be deceiving.

  Garland - I totally agree wth you. I will not even go on these web sites you have mentioned because I do not want to hear any shape or form of bashing the victim. period. So perhaps when they start that we should stick to sites that refrain from negative talk in any way of these girl because she is one true victim in this case without any disputing.

  It would be very disturbing if the defense attornies were behind these comments. Their seems to be a new conspiracy popping up to shed the victim in a horrile iight. So, perhaps I have been blind to the conspiracies in this case are beyond any I have seen.

  But, I truely doubt that this tactic will be tolerated by any jury. This would be the worst defense for these girls and could cost them dearly. So for everyone involved in this case any mention of any problems the victim was having before this incident, bears no weight on the horror she was put through. If any of these girls were my daughter I would refuse to let them use this as a defense. It shows a further lack of any remorse from the defendants. It would also indicate no lessons have been learned by them that this was horrific behavior and is criminal. So this is a very bad stradegy on anyone involved in it.

  I am certain with anyone who makes such remarks, their are personal and hidden agendas. I do not know if the victim still lives in this town but, if I were her family I would try to get out. It sounds like a very dangerous place for adults and teenagers to be living with the level of corruption. I have heard more conspiracy theories on this case then in the O.J. simpson trial.

  Also, if jurors do make decisions based on innocence and looks that would be a shame. But, Victoria Lindsay is a very attractive young lady and very innocent looking as well. So, again this may not be to their favor as the jealousy issue would be much more easily believed. Good night all.

• gompertz
  Nov 16, 2008 at 2:43 am

  Amy, I can’t remember for sure the details about the GMA video, I wonder if anyone else had the same impression I had about what I saw, or think I saw. Maybe the video is shown more often in Florida than NY, that would make sense. But as I recall, Mercades was the only one whose picture was shown like a “mug shot” if only for a second, and the others more indistinctly, but I’m not sure. That doesn’t mean that GMA or any part of the media is part of a conspiracy. I think the trouble for Mercades started with the way the matter was originally reported by the sheriff, and that original impression was never corrected.

  The first question is, how did the original reports distort the facts? And what facts were distorted? Well, that’s easy to answer. Right now I’m looking at the results of keying in “mercades nichols” on a google search. Here is one entry: “Myspace of Mercades Nichols {the girl who kidnapped and beat Victoria Lindsay}” … another starts like this: “Mercades Nichols is one of the six teenage girls who beat up Victoria Lindsay”(Zimbio)…One more example by Jonathan Turley from Aug. 9:”Mercades Nichols, 17, gained international infamy when a video showed her participating in the ambushing and beating of cheerleader Victoria Lindsay…” Then there are a number of “ringleader” references.I realize you could look these up yourself, but I like to practice my typing, I need improvement. By now we know that, whatever Mercades’ level of participation was, she did not hit Victoria, and she was no ringleader. So these reports are untruthful or at best deceptive.

  So the second question is why the media keep reporting these untruths. I think it’s just laziness, or inertia. The reporters who write the reports don’t do any fact checking, they simply copy what someone else has written. And the person they copy from didn’t verify anything either, and so on back to the original statement, and since the original statement has the aura of authority coming from an official report, it becomes the “gospel truth.” So, let me be clear about this, I don’t think the media have it in for anyone, but they are very irresponsible and don’t bother to check their sources. That’s why those in authority have such a tremendous power to decide what the public is told. It should be apparent that I have become very cynical about people in authority. I’ve experienced too much of the dishonesty of higher-ups to ever trust any of them.

  As for Casey Anthony. I lost interest in that long ago. Like the Styacey Petersen case and Natalie Holloway and countless similar cases that lead nowhere, I long for the old days when you held the criminals feet to the fire until they confessed, and saved everyone time and money.

  As for the accusations against Victoria there are several that have surfaced the last few days. One was from someone who claimed to be an old boyfriend, and he brought up an awful lot of filth. If he’s lying, that is despicable. And if he’s telling the truth that’s despicable too. The things he brings up are nasty, and if she really was his girlfriend it only proves that he is a pathetic,vindictive little man who can’t handle rejection, and some people on the other blog told him to just go away and grow up. Unfortunately that is all too common these days, people who are feeling the pain of a love affair that ended badly and exposing things that should remain private.

  There were other accusations, the ones for which Garland provided the links, and these involved claims that Victoria was violent toward someone’s daughter. What astonished me is that the claim here was that Victoria’s alleged violence occured after she was beaten. Well, Greg said it several times, those like Victoria who are victimized by bullies might become bullies themselves. If true it only compounds the horror of what was done to her, and if it’s not true, let’s hope the courts deal with these allegations properly. But these people are lining up to testify for the defense.

  All indications are that this will be a messy trial, and I fear the outcome will not be satisfactory. I hope I’m wrong. gn

• amyv
  Nov 16, 2008 at 3:18 am

  Scott - Hello. Yes this girl does need to find some new friends. If this is truely an ex-boyfriend that said this she is truely hanging around some people she desperately needs to stay away from. Bad bunch.

  Although, I do not like watchng the video I will watch it again later. I do know Brittini Was beating her bad on the couch maybe I missed punch when she go up. But, then April must have started up immediately after that because she beat her bad right after the couch.

  Gompertz - They have not been playing the video down here in Florida. Of course at first they did. You can google GMA interview with Victoria Lindsay and rewatch the interview.

  I wanted to make sure I got my fact straight. The picture of Mercedes was very brief. They did show all the girls as a group. As I stated before she was not refered as the ringleader. Just stated it happened at her house and that was it.
  Which is undisputed.

  The media did wrongly accuse Mercades as the ringleader but anyone that has the facts knows this is not true. That has not been reported lately. They have just not taken the originals
  off the internet.

  I do not even bother to respond to anyone that refers to the victims character. They are not worth reasoning with. And frankly it makes no difference to the crime. The trial should have already been over. Bashing the victim will definitely not benefit these girls. And witness to her behavior that will bash her will not go over with a jury well. It just is not important because it justifies nothing that happened to her.

• Scott
  Nov 16, 2008 at 10:06 am

  Yes Amy, Brittini beat Tori on the couch. Tori was pinned down on the couch and was covering her face with her hands and Brittini pulled a defensles Tori’s hands off her face and puched her. Tori rolled off the couch partley due to the momentum of the left hook Britttini hit her with and when she was getting up Brittini socked Tori in her left eye socket. Then as Tori made her way to the front door April greeted her with a beating that oddly enough focused on Tori’s back and shoulders. It was as if April was trying to avoid hitting Tori in her face or head at that time. If you watch the video I think you’ll notice that too.

  And Amy, Casey Anthony? Enough said. ;) What a terrible human being.

• Garland
  Nov 16, 2008 at 11:48 am

  Amy wrote:

  (If any of these girls were my daughter I would refuse to let them use this as a defense. It shows a further lack of any remorse from the defendants. It would also indicate no lessons have been learned by them that this was horrific behavior and is criminal. So this is a very bad strategy on anyone involved in it.

  I am certain with anyone who makes such remarks, their are personal and hidden agendas. I do not know if the victim still lives in this town but, if I were her family I would try to get out. It sounds like a very dangerous place for adults and teenagers to be living with the level of corruption.)

  So true, Amy. Instead of holding the defendants accountable & to take responsibility for what these girls have done, what do they do? They want to defame Victoria’s character by using her alleged lifestyle. That’s just being selfish & cowardly. I honestly believe that Victoria needs to start fresh & new again, in another town just so that she won’t have to deal with this mess anymore.

• christina Garcia
  Nov 16, 2008 at 1:53 pm

  Amyv….nice touch (off topic) how dare you even bring the Casey Anthony case in here and follow up by saying you can sue for anything…under the headlines that I am sueing Grady Judd, you may have others tricked into listening to your trickery, but not me. I now know you are part of the conspiracy. But you nor The Sheriff will stop me for fighting for whats right.

• christina Garcia
  Nov 16, 2008 at 3:07 pm

  Look, if anyone has experienced Tori’s behavior its my family, while I already knew alot about what people are saying about her, this is not the time to bring such horrific attention to her character flaws. The ex is probably like Jake the Snake whom saw a way to ambarres (ms) someone who rejected him. I don’t see why you guys as a group here don’t just totally refraim from even speaking about the other site. Even if its for arguement sake, you’re still speaking about the negativity right? If you can’t stop those people from talking, just stay over here talking only positive about the victim. Look, I’ve known since before the incident how Tori was but I have been very observed and careful with my knowledge, Mercades attorney had told me some questions the others asked Tori, which were so awful I just wont repeat them PERIOD! Way off track and would have nothing to do with the beating, I mean not even about her being a bully, nothing to do with violence : ( I made sure her ATT didn’t follow those types of questions and she didn’t. But like I said I think you guys should just ignore them as if they were’nt there. Have you ever heard the saying ” If you ignore something long enough it will go away” ? Obviously you guys know that the defense team can’t just go in and say ” isn’t it true you have always been a perfect angel”…I mean its thier job to defend but dam…some of those questions were just stupid.and way out of line.

• gompertz
  Nov 16, 2008 at 4:09 pm

  Hi everyone. Of course you are right Christina, about ignoring the allegations. We need to remember also that similar allegations appeared on this blog about six months ago, and those allegations were demonstrated to be false.

  As for the tactics of the lawyers, I think that April Cooper’s lawyer is taking the lead and the others are following him. I am happy to hear that Mercades’ attorney is taking a different approach. Mercades can get a fair verdict without resorting to dirty tricks. And, yes, I think she is a good person and the judge and jury will take that into account.

  Now as for bringing in the Casey Anthony case. Christina, you and Amy are both under a great deal of pressure, though maybe for different reasons. I have no inclination to defend or accuse anyone of anything here, I’ll just add a few remarks about why there is no comparison at all between that tragedy and the case here. First of all, Casey Anthony is a proven liar who has misled investigators from the beginning and wasted a lot of public time and money. Second, the law suit against someone named Zenaida Gonzales(not sure of the spelling) is frivolous, since that person never even met C.A. Anyway, it’s all there on the Orlando Sentinel web site. People has brought it up here several times, and yes it is off topic but the case has attracted so much attention it gets mentioned here sometimes. Could the reference that was made here to “anyone can sue for anything” be just a reference to that Casey Anthony case? I don’t think anyone here thinks the lawsuit against the sheriff is comparable to that, at least that’s my impression.

  Can everyone here agree that there is reason to be suspicious of the sheriff’s intentions? Most of us don’t know all the facts about that case, but I know enough about the corruption that is prevalent in law enforcement. The best policy would be to admit that there is a lot we don’t know about that case, just like the case involving the beating, and that there are more things to be revealed. I do think the case against the sheriff has merit and won’t be dismissed but will lead to a conclusion.

• amyv
  Nov 17, 2008 at 12:51 am

  Gompertz - Thank you for your fair assessment of my comment. Of course their is no comparision between the Casey Anthony case and this one. I truely would never compare that case to this one. It is very true they have solid proof that mother has lied.

  Since we have blogged on the topic about the slowness of our court system, I only used that to show that this is why they get bogged down. I know some will not believe me, but I am not a liar. We all have jumped to this blog because of the distasteful things that were said on others. We managed to keep it civil when others did not.

  There are many times when I do not consider the fact that this is under one particular portion of the case since, we discuss the case as a whole. So my reference to the frivilous law suit this girl has filed was not meant to imply Mercades mothers is. It may very well have merit.

  This is my frustration. I am not part of any conspiracy theory. I am just an advocate for victims. And, when more and more accuastions are made about how far the conspiracy theory reaches it becomes more unbelieveable to me personaly. Especialy, since I myself have now been accused of being part of it.

  I have said on many occasions I do not know the sheriff. I do not know the teenagers involved. I am just a mother of a teenage daughter who would like to prevent future violence. Or lessen as it is becoming increasinly worse. I just want them to grow up in a safer environment and that is my only agenda. And if reasonble punishment is given out that would show these actions are unacceptable. And please note I said reasonable. Just as I do not believe in life in prison, which is ridiculous, I believe that punishment must be dealt out to all girls involved. And, yes that inclues Cara Murphy. I do believe her charges should not have been dropped. She was present. She did participate even though she did not physicaly hurt the victim. Their is such a thing as conspiracy to commit a crime even though you are not the one who was involved in the actual beating.

  I to respect the Mercades lawyer for not using slandering tactics against the victim. Of course the lawyers job is to defend their client. But, the reference to whether Victoria is an angel or not is irrelevant. Since we all know no one is an angel, this would be a ridiculous statement for an attorney to make.

  The questions that should be asked of Victoria should be based solely on the attack itself. Not on any aspect of her character since we all agree does not matter in this case. And, does not bear weight on what was done to her since their is not excuse.

  Garland - Hello. I agree with you whole heartedly. Even more so now that I have been accused of trickery in this case.

  I am sure their are good and bad in this town as their are everywhere. However, much has been made of the fact that the sheriff is corrupt. Teenagers are treated unfairly. And, bullying seems to run rampid their. But, I will not condemn everyone their since that would be totally unfair on my part.

  Gompertz - Once again thank you for not jumping to conclusions about my intentions. I may have a different perspective of law enforcement, as I have not been exposed to some of the situations you may have been.

  Therefore, it is hard to come to hasty conclusions as their are still a lot of personal experiences and emotions involved in forming opinions on the sheriff. Yes, I do not dispute the fact that the sheriff should have gotten his facts straight about the case before going public. Although, I agree with some of his assessments, he did get the fact wrong that all of the girls hit the victim and we know now two of them did not. As for any further conspiracy, we will let the courts decide that as we do not have enough of the details.

  Just as we have been asked to be fair to the accused, I will refrain from using remarks about the boy Jake since I do not have all the facts on that one either. Perhaps if some documents can be scanned we will have factual evidence he is part of the corruption. I refuse to call him by the nick name adopted for him because I simply am trying to be fair. And, am trying to stick more to facts, than emotions. I have come a long way. lol. Not quit all the way their yet.

  Gompertz - please do not take but, we hav all agreed name calling is not constructive in this case, Why is it acceptable to call this boy a name. Should we not also give him the benefit of the doubt. As, we have been asked to give some of these teenage girls?

  Good night all.

• gompertz
  Nov 17, 2008 at 3:01 am

  Amy, you bring up an important point that everyone has jumped over to this one blog and all kinds of things get discussed here on all kinds of subjects. Look at my last discussion with Greg about libertarianism, that has no direct connection with this case. As for bringing up Casey Anthony it has been brought up here and on Topix a few times. And you live not far away from where that is happening, right?

  Although I have no children of my own, I have had many friends who went through the agony of raising kids only to see them get in trouble, in spite of their best efforts. I have seen good people go to pieces because their kids wound up in prison for drugs or violence. For Victoria’s parents as well as the parents of all the accused, it must be horrible. I’ve discussed this case with friends and coworkers and the consensus is that no one would like their kids to be either the victim or the victimizer. And although Mercades’ mother is strong and courageous this case must be taking a terrible toll on her.

  Tonight MSNBC rebroadcast the “Teens Gone Wild” program which dealt with the Lakeland case, among others. I also found the GMA interview on google and even saw part of the Insider interview. So, the media are reviving interest in this in time for the trial, and I think the pretrial is still on for Tuesday. Those involved in the case must be feeling the tension mounting and I think we need to consider that.

  Now, I wanted to say something about the nickname of the BF. It is not for me to use names, but those directly involved have that right I think. As for my negative opinion of him, it is just an opinion and not an indictment, though I hope a jury gets the chance to clear matters up. I consider the statements by Mercades’ grandmother, that it was a mutually abusive relationship to be significant, and shows that he was not blameless. I do have the old-fashioned belief that a man must be strong enough, physically and mentally, to resist the urge to hit back at his girlfriend, even if she hits him. Correct me if I’m wrong, wasn’t he a marine? I could go on and on about this subject, and I admit a lot of it is a kind of bias in favor of women, but there is also the statistical evidence that men are much more likely to be the aggressor(though not always). Also while I find no confirmtion of the assertion that Mercades was pregnant I think it is still true (in spite of some recent claims to the contrary) that only women bear that particular burden. And while it is not at all relevant, I want to say I loved the movie Juno. :)

  As for the evils I have seen in the court system, I have been on juries and I have been a plaintiff in civil trials, and I can attest to the fact that lawyers are unscrupulous and look out only for themselves. I have been ripped off by lawyers that were supposed to be working for me, but I would not dream of giving any details on a public forum. There is a very real chance that some of these people would retaliate if I named names and I know I am not being paranoid or melodramatic about this, because that is how they operate. I suppose that is true everywhere when it comes to people in the courts and law enforcement,but in NY the corruption also extends to doctors and hospital workers, at least when it comes to falsifying documents, but again I am not giving any details. And forget about reporting it to anyone, it won’t help and it could hurt. I suppose in Florida at least the medical personnel are trustworthy, I’m just guessing. Anyway that’s been my experience and soon we may all have more reliable evidence to decide.

• GregS
  Nov 17, 2008 at 10:48 am

  Gomp the corruption you speak of is real but it’s not always as simple as being a bunch of random individuals and cliques. We are talking about gangs, clans, mafias and brotherhoods. Thousands of individuals in strategic positions of influence, and if you attack one you attack all. The lawyers you speak of if you make an enemy out of one of them, they can go back to their country club, or fraternity and do something about it, and in the internet age they probably just have a big mailing list with all the most influential people on it.

  Yes doctors are corrupt to so you have to worry about doctors giving you deliberate misdiagnoses, and you also have to worry about the judges, if you piss off the wrong person and get the wrong judge that happens to be in the fraternity or country club then you are screwed twice, and of course the jury could also have members of the fraternity on it and if you live in a small town its much worse, and if you go to prison some of the people in there could be in the fraternity and then you are screwed triple.

  If you piss off a powerful individual it’s like dealing with the mafia, you aren’t safe anywhere really and can’t trust any profession because they’ll have people in every profession out to get you. This is a problem mainly with small towns like Polk County, but it’s also like that in Hollywood, and in New York, where all the powerful families are interconnected and if you aren’t connected you don’t want to make enemies of someone who is.

• GregS
  Nov 17, 2008 at 11:03 am

  If you want to know how corrupt things can get in small towns look up D.C. Stephenson, the most powerful man in Indiana in the 1920s. He was also the Klan grand dragon. (250,000 members, 1 in 3 of all males in Indiana at the time)

• christina Garcia
  Nov 17, 2008 at 2:54 pm

  Amyv:

  My comment about ” Isn’t it true you’re an angel” was to prove that very point that they wouldn’t be asking that. I don’t wish to argue with you or anyone else about the point I made. Because that is only drawing in more negativity, and I simply don’t want anymore. Look, I don’t know who you are, but I appreciate you deciding to refraim from judging until carefully thinking as you had posted earlier. I can see that you are trying to look at both sides, and you know you may never reach the entirety of understanding our side as well, but at least you’re trying. I admire that in you, you are very opionated like yours truely. That may be why we butt heads more.In your last post I seen a person that is trying to see both sides, and respecting that in fact maybe I do have a case, and maybe we were mistreated. Thank you. Your post touched me this morning. I read it this morning and it took this long to respond because I was thinking, wow this person really turned around. I wish I had a scaneer to show you and the others what you were talking about, I have the reports right here on my desk : ( I also sent someone on here a link to see that ” Jake the Snake” was posting comments on her myspace well after the injuction. With all due respect I feel I have earned the right to call him that. That is what I called him when they were together, and I’ll continue. I never supported thier relationship because I am a very good judge of character and I knew that’s what he was. And for the record this kid is only 17 and he is posing as a Marine man, which he is not. I don’t think he’s make it there for 2 hours much less come out a Marine. My father was a Coperal ( ms I’m sure) in the Marines, now that is something to be proud of. Let me share with you someone who had dignity and respect, when I use to brag about my dad having that, he said oh please don’t say that sweetie, because the levels are different now, and when I was in the Marines a Corperal wasn’t as high in ranking as now. When I bragged about him owning his own construction company he’d say ” don’t say that, say I am President of the company. haha he was something else, and Mercades was raised around people of this nature. Not a bunch of dope heads that didn’t care about her, I took good care of her. And Mayv I’m sorry if you don’t want to be compared to my problems, but I feel from my heart I need to say this..My father died in 2001 of stomach cancer, he always took good care of himself, no smoking, drinking, or drugs. He took like 30 vitamins a day, it was crazy, you could smell them when you walked in his house. And the lord still took him from us, I was a mess. I was pregnant so I had to put my feelings aside for 9 months, for no stress on the baby ( Kalina) but it all caught up with me after, the doctors put me on a list of meds. like at least 7, other dotors would ask me how I walked into thier office when I told them what all I was taking. I was like a zomby! I don’t know how sick your dad is, but if you need any support in this matter I am here. ok? I know you probably don’t want it, but seriously the case aside…its very hard taking care of a sick parent much more losing one : *( my heart goes out to you. I hope all his business affairs didn’t get dropped in your lap like mine. I had no siblings to share the burden. You’re not alone hon.

  Peace.

• Amyv
  Nov 17, 2008 at 4:24 pm

  Christinia - I do very much appreciate your offer of support with my father. I have always been daddys little girl. I believe me and you are around the same age. But, you never out grow that feeling of wanting to have your parents live forever. So from one daughter of a cancer victim to another thank your kindness. This truely has been one of the most difficult times in my life.
  Fortunately, I do have the support of my brothers and sisters but I so cling to my father I want to be the only one to take care of him.
  It is tough with the role reversal.

  You did make me laugh when you said we were both stubborn woman as I could not agree more.
  It is a hard traiit to keep under control isn’t it?
  But, it shows we have courage to over come obstacles and are not easily beaten down.

  I absolutely would not want to be in the shoes of any parent in this situation. Whether it would be the victim or the girls charged. It must be like being on a roller coaster. That is why believe I think for all of your sakes, especialy the girls they need to stop postponing the trials. It unnecessarilly causes added stress to an already incredibly tense situation for everyone involved. Their needs to be some closure.

  Gompertz - Yes I do live close of the Caylee Anthony case. It is on the news continuously.
  It is so heartbreaking. I can not imagine what her parents are going through. That has got to be the most awful situation possible. You see fully how they grief over their granddaughter but, as any parent would stick by their daughter. My heart breaks for them.

  Christinia - We are both mothers of teenage daughters and I am sure you have seen how the bullying and trash talking is beyond control. I so wish we could have children that would understand that this can make their lives so miserable, it is negative energy and it can have some horrible consequences.

  I hate to say what if but, what if one of those blows did kill the victim. Whether intentional or not these girls would have been charged with murder. And I truelly do not think anyone of these girls every had that in mind. Although, I think Brittini Hardcastle reallly did not care how much damage she inflicted.

  So even though we may not agree on everything I believe the real issue in this case is what do we do to prevent violence among teens. I wish their was an easy answer. Their just isn’t one.

• christina garcia
  Nov 17, 2008 at 4:59 pm

  Amyv…We couldn’t agree more about the trial. Mercades is ready, we call her attorney everyday. It has gotten so bad that her attorney has now advised me that she does not have to speak to me..??wth?? I was so mad, but I have already paid her cash money : ( what can I do? She has given us a little clue that no prison time will be involved for Mercades. The pre trial is tomorrow and hopefully they negotiate tomorrow too. I think we all know why the other are pro longing the case, but my family wants this crap over with. : ( Mercades wants to be sentenced, do her sentence, and go on with her life. Good Luck Amy and I’ll pray for your daddy. ( I was daddy’s lil girl too) I understand completely. I don’t know how sick he is, but I sent my dad to Mexico for Leatril treatments it prolonged his life 6 months, and if we had caught it earlier it could’ve saved his life. The hospital is in Tiajuana

• LawAndOrder
  Nov 18, 2008 at 4:19 am

  An article was posted in the Lakeland Ledger last night. The portion pertinent to Mercades:

  “Lindsay spoke about how her close friendship with Mercades Nichols, 17, who is also charged in the case, began to deteriorate. She said she refused to help Nichols break up a relationship between Nichols’ ex-boyfriend and a girl he was dating.

  “It kind of went downhill from there,” Lindsay said.

  Nichols was jealous, she said, because Lindsay had more friends than Nichols did. Before the beating, Lindsay also recalled how the girls were yelling at her about how many “guy friends” she has.

  Lindsay said there was more of the March 30 beating that was filmed but must have been destroyed later.”

• LawAndOrder
  Nov 18, 2008 at 4:39 am

  “Sources” tell Orlando’s Fox 35 that plea deals “may” happen.

• Amyv
  Nov 18, 2008 at 8:28 am

  I have had my doubts from the beginning that this case was about trash talking. Since, it was mentioned on the video, the talk about boys was much more prevelant. I think from what we see on the tape, there is more than enough evidence than this was definately the motive behind this beating. A whole lot of jealousy going on. That is quite clear between April, Brittini and Kayla. Of could course the other Brittany find it was satisfying to make disgusting noises, Cara Murphy and Mercades were silent so motive there not a clear. Although, since the victim has stated I believe it to be true.

  Christinia - Thank you once again for concern for my father. We do not get the final results until Monday and optionions will be made to us then. Although, I am dreading this, The waiting is much worse.

  I am not law savy but, why did they wait so long to offer plea deals? I just don’t understand the whole court system in general. We make much about corruption in police departments but, boy these lawyers, once again not all, really do not look out sometime for the benefits of their client.
  Since, this is a high profile case, their is free media attention for some of them.

  I hope if plea deals are offered, the punishment fits the crime. Good luck to Victoria if she has to be precent today. Dont know about all of these pretrials. She has truely been put through enough.

  All of us agree despite our differences that closer for this case is long over due. And, for the families on both sides the waiting is worse. If you face things head on and know what you are dealing with, it is much better than being left in limbo Even the out come may not be satisfactory for everyone involved it needs to be over.

• gompertz
  Nov 18, 2008 at 9:50 am

  Plea deals might mean that we will see a fair resolution of this case with appropriate sentences, and would eliminate the possibility of excessively harsh punishment like life imprisonment. I wonder, though, whether the offer of a plea deal has anything to do with the defendants showing any remorse? Have they really learned anything or do they still think it’s about not getting caught?

  Amy and Christina, it is difficult to deal with the illness and death of one’s parents. Having lost both my parents long ago, I know how hard it is. You never really get over it, but I know both of you have the strength to continue doing your best. And you do have something important to live for, and that is to provide love and guidance for your children.

• gompertz
  Nov 18, 2008 at 10:35 am

  It isn’t surprising that the trouble was mostly about boys and popularity. Girls are driven by the urge to emulate the artificial images of feminine beauty created by the advertising industry. How much needless anxiety do girls feel because they compare themselves to someone else’s ideal of beauty. This anxiety can be so great that it leads to violence as we see in this case and many others.

  I think parents, especially mothers, can help a great deal by showing that there are alternatives to accepting the synthetic images of advertising. But a lot more is needed, like radically reforming the education system and restoring a sense of community in which everyone can feel valued for their own merits. Maybe this well-publicized case can wake people up to the need for social change.

  Specifically, there is no reason why any of these girls,victim and defendants, can’t find husbands who love and appreciate them, or fulfillment through a career. Why is it that they seem to place so little value on these things that they prefer to dissipate their lives in casual sex, drinking and violence? Of course the individuals are responsible for their bad choices, but that does not absolve the education system, the advertising industry and the entertainment industry, and these are social issues that must be dealt with.

• christina garcia
  Nov 18, 2008 at 11:11 am

  I hope that post was untrue about the ledger, I’m going to look it up now, sorry guys I can’t allow my kid to be trashed even more, all I’m going to say is that this comment wasn’t brought up about Mercades before….hmm..only after Jake shared his tragic story =-rolling eyes- If she is lieing on Mercades I will have to excuse myself from this blog as it would be hypocritical for me to defend my daughter’s name from these lies but yet be on here supporting Tori. I would not be being honest, and I have formed a respect for every llast person on here.. Please just understand the position I am in.

• Scott
  Nov 18, 2008 at 11:49 am

  Hey Christina, I’m not sure you’ve spoken about this but how do you feel with serious charges still pending for Mercades who did not hit Tori but all charges were dropped for Cara Murphy who also did not hit Tori? It doesn’t seem fair.

  I want there to be a trial after all the absurd waiting. I don’t want plea deals offered at this point. But if there are plea deal offered it will make the prosecution look bad because they could have offered pea deal several months ago.

• Scott
  Nov 18, 2008 at 11:55 am

  I read an article this morning from The Ledger about Tori’s recent deposition. The Ledger disclosed the arrest records of a juvenile. That’s supposed to be private information. I’m not surprised at anything The Ledger does. That information about Tori was meant to be private not public. It’s very strange how juvenile’s are treated in Florida. Tori needs to get help for her anger and other issues and I hope she has and that’s part of the reason she did not want to fight. But Tori has been torpedoed by the media, lawyers and girls she’s known for years. How can she ever trust anyone again?

  Why would Tori’s attorney allow her to give deposition about her arrests when that information about a juvenile is confidential? Whose side are they on? It’s like Tori is trying to give the defense ammunition to help the defendants and that doesn’t make sense. Maybe Tori really doesn’t want the girls to go to jail and this is her way of helping them.

  As for Tori according to The Ledger having to lock herself in someone’s car to avoid getting mauled by a group of softball girls at a bonfire is scary and unnerving.:( And over what? A girl being upset that her boyfriend wanted to date Tori? OMG you cannot be serious! How is that Tori’s fault? It’s not. But you can bet girls that didn’t like blamed her for that. And 2 of those girls were April Cooper and Brittany Mayes. I think we now know why they were there to see and help Tori “get it” on March 30, 2008. It wasn’t a coincidence afterall. That was a plot for them to finally get Tori and they did. And the excitement from the girls on the video from cheering on her beating to making orgasmic sounds at the sight of her being injured explains how badly they wanted her hurt. That cannot be denied. Tori has paid for her sins in the legal system for striking her stepmother and sister and has hopefully gotten help for her anger problem. I hope Tori can move on and live a productive life. Now the girls who played various roles in her planned assault and battery need to pay legally for their sins and for their imprisoning Tori as well.

• christina garcia
  Nov 18, 2008 at 12:06 pm

  Scott: Why would you only put this on here? I do not support talking badly about the victim, but when you just cut and paste from an article it isn’t fair, there is much more in it. I only ask you to be respectful and fair when you cut and paste something. Thanks

• Scott
  Nov 18, 2008 at 12:17 pm

  Why would I only put what on here? How wasn’t I fair? I pride myself on being fair to all involved.

  Anyway good luck today Christina.

• gompertz
  Nov 18, 2008 at 12:45 pm

  From what the Ledger article said, many girls were jealous of Victoria’s popularity, just as she herself stated on the GMA interview. That’s not surprising and nothing new. The thing that is new is that we now know that April Cooper and Brittany Mayes had a serious grudge against Victoria as a result of a previous dispute that almost got violent. That does not reflect well on AC and BM, it is not Victoria’s fault that she is popular.

  It may be that Victoria and Mercades were going through problems of their own, but why is that an issue? It is not unusual for close friends to go through rough times in their friendship, and they usually work things out if there is no outside influence. What if it involved boys, it usually does, and that is sad but true. It does not connect Mercades to the incident on the beach.

  As for Victoria’s statement about her friendship with Mercades deteriorating, remember this was said under the pressure of intensive cross-examination by aggressive attorneys. They can twist a person’s words to suit their needs. Let’s wait and see what we can learn about the defense attorneys’ strategy.

  We already know that they intend to attack Victoria’s character. It’s possible that Victoria has outbursts of anger (maybe there’s a medical reason) without meaning she is habitually violent. By exaggerating the seriousness of the disagreement between Mercades and Victoria the defense could be playing the game of guilt by association. Mercades is so angry that she allies herself with a group that is out to physically hurt Victoria, so she must be inclined to violence. And since Mercades and Victoria are close friends, and Mercades is violent then so is her friend. Yes, that kind of thing has worked with juries. You just drag everyone down and the jury thinks all these girls are indistinguishable in their propensity for violence. That way the most violent ones are no worse than the others, and nothing gets sorted out.

  Is it possible this scenario is true? I don’t know but it makes sense and so do some other stories. But they are just stories until we learn more facts. Anyway it isn’t necessary to conclude that Victoria is simply lying. She is under pressure just like everyone else. Anyway, the news about AC and BM may increase their culpability in the sequence of events that led up to the tragedy, and their lawyers would like Victoria and Mercades to share the guilt. But let’s wait for more information.

• gompertz
  Nov 18, 2008 at 1:01 pm

  Christina,it’s really admirable to see how you stand up for your daughter.
  I wish more information about Jake were out there, because if only half of what has been said on the blogs is true, Mercades must have gone through a lot of hardship because of him.

• Scott
  Nov 18, 2008 at 1:44 pm

  Yes Gompertz the scenario of the defense lawyers sullying all the girls to drag them down to make them indisinguishable in their propensity for violence is taking place.

  Tori has her anger issues to deal with. But she showed great self control in not trying to fight back in both of those serious situations where rage filled girls trapped her. Can you imagine Tori had to lock herself in a car at the bonfire to avoid getting beaten by a mob of angry girls? It’s incredible.

• Garland
  Nov 18, 2008 at 1:45 pm

  I agree with what you’re saying, Scott, & it’s very ridiculous it’s ridiculous for juvenile records to be displayed out in the public. I wonder why Victoria’s lawyer would let them display private information about herself? Doesn’t make sense at all. Poor, poor Victoria. I hope the defendant’s lawyers are VERY happy. Karma will come back to bite them in the behind.

• Garland
  Nov 18, 2008 at 1:51 pm

  This just in an hour ago. There are plea deals going on about the case.

  http://www.theledger.com/article/20081118/NEWS/811180269/1410?Title=Plea_Deals_Offered_in_Video_Beating_Case

• Scott
  Nov 18, 2008 at 1:58 pm

  Garland, this endless torture of Tori might not have happened if Gloria Allred was still her lawyer. Isn’t Allred supposed to help females who are victims of violent acts? It doesn’t matter that Tori has anger issues to deal with. Allred left her high and dry and if it was over money then it proves she doesn’t have a teenage girl’s best interests at heart. There is no way Victoria’s lawyer should have allowed her to answer certain personal questions she didn’t even have to answer. That was absurd.

• Scott
  Nov 18, 2008 at 2:13 pm

  Garland, as for plea offers from the prosecution, this could have been done 4 or 5 months ago. Why wait so long? To drag Tori through the mud for a few more months? Was anybody in the legal system in Polk County really on Tori’s side in all of this? It sure doesn’t look like they were with the way she was treated.

  Now that the possiblty of a trial date being set is on the horizon the defendants want to plea deal? I say bullsh!t to that as Brittini Hardcastle would say. ;)

  Tori most likley still needs many thousands of dollars to cover her medical bills. Who is going to pay for those bills? As forgiving as Tori seems to be toward the defendants I don’t think she will file civil suits against them. But she should for various reasons including the permanent physical and emotional damage they caused her.

• Navigator
  Nov 18, 2008 at 2:14 pm

  gompertz… and all the rest of you… Wow… how soon we forget that there is a VICTIM here. You are LISTENING to the mother of the ACCUSED and believing her? She is as munipulative as her daughter … course it is a family trait. PLEASE…. remember who you are dealing with here. This is the women who said that Tori should have been able to “back it up”. and the only FACTS known about Mercedes exboyfriend are that SHE STABBED him and threatened him… stated in his statement to the police…he is also a victim here! This women, Mercedes mother, will do ANYTHING to discredit the victim and make her daughter look like an angel… and to make money off of this situation and do not forget that. The facts are coming out now… and they are not going to be pretty… for either side… I am sure. But ALWAYS remember - The victim is TORI….and the FACTS are on video and that is that.

• Garland
  Nov 18, 2008 at 2:20 pm

  Scott, most likely. I certainly bet that they were delaying this trial all along just to get information & to try to defame Victoria by using her personal lifestyle, & then going for the plea bargain. It’s crazy why they would do such a thing like this. I do agree with you that this should’ve been done many, Many months ago. Makes me so sick.

• Scott
  Nov 18, 2008 at 2:49 pm

  Navigator, alot has been done to hurt Tori and make her not seem like the victim she was in the assault and battery against her. But she is the victim and that won’t change.

  Garland, it’s true the delays occured to dig up more dirt on Tori so the prosecution would have to come to the defendants with plea offers. It’s very frustrating. Waiting all this time I had hoped the defendants especially the most violent ones had the guts to go on trial. But that doesn’t see to be the case. And it doesn’t matter that Tori had problems at home or had a misdemeanor record. That doesn’t excuse in the least what happened to her even though some people think it is an excuse.

• gompertz
  Nov 18, 2008 at 3:08 pm

  Navigator, did anyone here deny that Victoria is the victim??? I hate to repeat myself again and again, but I have said that my support for the victim Victoria is unconditional. I have said that based on all I have seen she is a peaceful and good person. Over and above words, one can choose to show support in various ways. Some people may think supporting Victoria is something like rooting for a ball team (and I am not accusing anyone of that). I root for the NY Mets, I attend Met games, and cheer and wave a banner. And those nine men on the field that I don’t know couldn’t care less about my support. They are overpaid athletes who live the good life, Victoria is a young girl who suffered a brutal beating for no good reason. So I would think I would show my support in a way different from the way I would support a ball team. Some people have shown support by trying to contact the family personally and perhaps I am one of those people, that is not something anyone else needs to know. For someone like Victoria whom I don’t know personally my ability to help is limited.

  What people like me can do is to try to help the victims that we do know. There are crime victims and people who suffer all sorts of misfortune whose needs we know personally and can address.

  Also this particular thread is about Mercades and the law suit filed by her mother. So it seems appropriate to talk about it here (even though many other things get talked about, not directly related to this case at all). One of the things I do in these blogs is to explore all the possibilities based on the limited evidence. Then I use a little logic and a lot of gut feelings and intuition based on my many years of dealing with all kinds of people in all kinds of situations.

  Since I have had some experience with law enforcement and with lawyers (and I can’t be more specific or provide examples) I know that the people in those professions are corrupt more often than not. So I do see a very real possibility (and it is only a possibility, of course) that the sheriff is really not the pillar of civilization people believe him to be. Remember being popular is no guarantee of anything. Also, look at the statement “she stabbed him”. Did she really? If you read the affidavit, it says she stabbed him with a pen which did no harm except to leave ink marks. The dictionary defined stabbing as a piercing that causes injury, or at least breaks the skin. Since the pen did no harm, it is just playing with words whether to call it a stabbing. But it sounds much worse than it does if the reports leave out the qualification that it did no harm except to leave ink marks, and I suppose a little soap and water took care of that. The other charges in that affidavit may be more serious, but there are degrees of seriousness. Certainly Mercades has problems that deserve attention, such as counseling, anger management perhaps, but not arrest.

  I am not trying to discredit your commitment to the truth, but I wish you would explain how it is that you seem much more concerned about expressing anger toward the one who did not hit Victoria and you are silent about the ones that did. As I said a short while ago, the new information about the attack on Victoria at the bonfire point to an even greater degree of guilt for April Cooper and Brittany Mayes. It would be a miscarriage of justice if they got away with their crime, and yes it was a crime, no one here has ever denied that. I admit that I have changed my opinions on certain aspects of the case with regard to Mercades and her mother. All I ask you to do is ask if it is possible for people to be wrong about some things and maybe change their minds without being suspected of having ulterior motives?

• gompertz
  Nov 18, 2008 at 3:15 pm

  Scott and Garland, i was afraid this might happen,the corrupt system chews up and spits out victims and it should be obvious by now that the prosecution never cared about Victoria. It makes me sick too, but I know how the courts operate and in the end prosecutors and defense lawyers are on the same side and the side is not the side of justice. It remains to be seen how many outrages like this the people will stand before someone takes matters into their own hands. I would really like to see Mercades get a plea deal but the others need to do some serious time.